Loki Season 2 Discussion - Spoilers

[Stalker0]

My sense of it is that the Loom is a fail-safe for he who remains, not for the TVA. The understanding of what the Loom was for was wrong, until Loki goes back to He Who Remains.
Loki decides to not try to preserve the timelines. He breaks the Loom, almost killing both the Sacred Timeline as well as all branches of it. He then rejuvenates the timelines and reassembles them while taking the throne of time, presumably because the timelines still need some maintenance.
The season was about understanding He Who Remains trick and having the courage to recreate the timelines. A victory for free will, but with the re-arisen immanent threat of the time war.
TomB

My issue with that is.... HWR has been on top of things this entire time, he has literally known every step. Hell he knew about the time skipping, was even goading Loki to check on his abilities. It seems weird to have that level of control and knowledge and leave things open for him to be destroyed if loki does what he did.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

My issue with that is.... HWR has been on top of things this entire time, he has literally known every step. Hell he knew about the time skipping, was even goading Loki to check on his abilities. It seems weird to have that level of control and knowledge and leave things open for him to be destroyed if loki does what he did.

So, on that. I agree, but I also think that there is one small change that could have dramatically improved that problem.

Here's the thing. What we are left with is the typical "Evil Overlord" problem. Sure, he's got this great plan, except that he doesn't account for the fact that ... you know ... it might not work. He could have just killed Sylvie and Loki easily and there would have never have been a need for any of this.

Imagine, however, the whole issue re-contextualized. HWR won. He won the time war. He got all the power. He could deal with Kang variants easily. He controlled time, and did whatever he wanted. But what did it actually get him? Nothing but sitting, alone, at the end of time. He had all the power, but it didn't matter. It was all meaningless.

By presenting Loki with a choice, he injected meaning back. Because Loki could choose to either kill Sylvie (and thus keep him in power, which would be entertaining if nothing else). Or Loki could end everything by letting him die (which would be entertaining, and also release him).

Or Loki could take his position, which would also free him. He had accomplished everything. He had won. He had gotten all the power. When Loki took the throne, he assumed the burden that HWR had. Which is not just entertaining, not only releases him, but is also its own kind of victory.

....but they didn't bother providing the necessary depth or information to let us see that. Just providing us a little bit more might have made it a much more complex ending. Instead, it was simplified down to "All-powerful villain concocts an overly-complex plan for no good reason, and doesn't realize it could fail." Oh well.

 

[Ryujin]

So, on that. I agree, but I also think that there is one small change that could have dramatically improved that problem.

Here's the thing. What we are left with is the typical "Evil Overlord" problem. Sure, he's got this great plan, except that he doesn't account for the fact that ... you know ... it might not work. He could have just killed Sylvie and Loki easily and there would have never have been a need for any of this.

Imagine, however, the whole issue re-contextualized. HWR won. He won the time war. He got all the power. He could deal with Kang variants easily. He controlled time, and did whatever he wanted. But what did it actually get him? Nothing but sitting, alone, at the end of time. He had all the power, but it didn't matter. It was all meaningless.

By presenting Loki with a choice, he injected meaning back. Because Loki could choose to either kill Sylvie (and thus keep him in power, which would be entertaining if nothing else). Or Loki could end everything by letting him die (which would be entertaining, and also release him).

Or Loki could take his position, which would also free him. He had accomplished everything. He had won. He had gotten all the power. When Loki took the throne, he assumed the burden that HWR had. Which is not just entertaining, not only releases him, but is also its own kind of victory.

....but they didn't bother providing the necessary depth or information to let us see that. Just providing us a little bit more might have made it a much more complex ending. Instead, it was simplified down to "All-powerful villain concocts an overly-complex plan for no good reason, and doesn't realize it could fail." Oh well.

When you have lived forever, and accomplished everything that you ever dreamed, what do you do for the rest of eternity? Classic "immortality is a curse."

 

[Zaukrie]

I admit if I was Loki, I would have gone to the other gods and asked for help. Hell, I'd have visited Odin for sure...... But they never ask for help, just like US cop shows.....

Like I said, I felt like I was enjoying the show the first half of the year.....

 

[Stalker0]

When you have lived forever, and accomplished everything that you ever dreamed, what do you do for the rest of eternity? Classic "immortality is a curse."

HWR motivation to "end it" makes sense, but my lord what a round about way to do it!

That's what I'm struggling with, if HWR really just wanted it all to stop, it seems there are so many easier ways to do it. He could have broken the loom himself for example easy as pie. How does Loki really fit into his master plan that we have to go through this crazy weird loopy path to get at what HWR wants as his "ultimate end"?

 

[wicked cool]

This show is Seinfeld. A show about a bunch of nothing. I sat through this just hoping this time it would be excellent
It was Groundhog Day on crack or hallucinogen etc. this was not worth it

 

[Ryujin]

HWR motivation to "end it" makes sense, but my lord what a round about way to do it!

That's what I'm struggling with, if HWR really just wanted it all to stop, it seems there are so many easier ways to do it. He could have broken the loom himself for example easy as pie. How does Loki really fit into his master plan that we have to go through this crazy weird loopy path to get at what HWR wants as his "ultimate end"?

Like Snarf said, one last bit of entertainment. Maybe he couldn't break it himself? Maybe that would have been too boring or, after all these aeons, he couldn't bring himself to end it all?

 

[Stalker0]

I admit if I was Loki, I would have gone to the other gods and asked for help. Hell, I'd have visited Odin for sure...... But they never ask for help, just like US cop shows.....

yeah its the problem with doing an integrated universe on a finite budget, at the end of the day you have to work within the actor pool you have access to.

Does it make sense for Loki to timeskip back to his dad and talked through some ideas. Absolutely. But perhaps they can't afford or get Anthony Hopkins for the part, so they drop that idea.

Of course there are ways to have your cake and eat it too. You could just show Loki do a skip back to Odin (his back turned using a double), and then have Loki start talking to Odin while the scene fades to black. We as the audience miss out on what is said but we then know that Loki is consulting some of the big players (which closes the narrative gap).

I'll use another example. In No Way Home....ok Spiderman has been outed to the world, its a REALLY tough time for him. Not a single avenger comes out to console him, help him out? Thats insane! Again actor budget, but an easy workaround. Have Peter recieve a letter, signed by all the avengers (fake signatures likely unless you actually can get the actors to sign it). The letter says they are all behind him 100%, rooting for him, etc etc. Now is that as good as getting actual actors to come in and talk to Peter of course not, but it at least tells the audience "yeah the avengers are not total a holes, they are present in the story". I am sure most audience members can respect you can't get the whole cast into every movie, but that dosn't mean you can't use just a few narrative tricks to convince me they don't just poof out of existance when its not their movie.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This show is Seinfeld. A show about a bunch of nothing. I sat through this just hoping this time it would be excellent
It was Groundhog Day on crack or hallucinogen etc. this was not worth it

What? You say that like it's a bad thing.

Not only does this sound like a superlative, you've given me plans for the weekend!

 

[wicked cool]

What? You say that like it's a bad thing.

Not only does this sound like a superlative, you've given me plans for the weekend!

Groundhog Day did it better however maybe you’re right. Drugs could make it better hahA