D&D 5E Vecna: Eve of Ruin Coming 2024

Just revealed by WotC, a multiverse spanning adventure which goes up to level 20 and features cameos from famous D&D characters. More info when we have it!

Update--WotC has taken down the promo image and replaced it with one without a release date. See more here.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I am expecting more notable changes in the 24 MM than Monsters of the Multiverse.

 

[Parmandur]

I am expecting more notable changes in the 24 MM than Monsters of the Multiverse.

Well, there are more new stat blocks by the sound of it.

 

[Reynard]

It is very strange to be presented with an argument that at once says that there is no appreciable difference between the old version and the new, and that the new version will also be better. Frankly, it doesn't make sense and at best sounds like folks that want to have their cake and eat it to. At worst, it sounds like marketing BS that will ultimately result in early adopters feeling cheated and swindled, fueling a backlash even worse than the 3.5 one.

In the end, we don't actually have enough info yet, especially in regards to non-PHB changes. Optimists can assume that WotC will fulfill its promises and not undermine existing products, but those of us old enough to remember 3E to e.5 and 3.5 to 4E know better.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Well, there are more new stat blocks by the sound of it.

Yes, but I am expecting more changes to the existing stuff. Like I expect the Giants for example to have more differences than each type being a bit more durable and doing some extra damage.

 

[Parmandur]

It is very strange to be presented with an argument that at once says that there is no appreciable difference between the old version and the new, and that the new version will also be better. Frankly, it doesn't make sense and at best sounds like folks that want to have their cake and eat it to. At worst, it sounds like marketing BS that will ultimately result in early adopters feeling cheated and swindled, fueling a backlash even worse than the 3.5 one.

In the end, we don't actually have enough info yet, especially in regards to non-PHB changes. Optimists can assume that WotC will fulfill its promises and not undermine existing products, but those of us old enough to remember 3E to e.5 and 3.5 to 4E know better.

Sure, there are changes: but they are compatible changes and refinements. We have the ~6 pages of rule changes in the current Rules Glossary, and they have gone over what the new Classes look like. It's not a mystery. And the new Monsters they have said are in line with the Monster design from the past several Monster books, which have refined and improved what they were doing tin the Teens.

But this is the important part: they are refined components in the same mathematical framework. The newer Mosntera work with the existing 5E CR a d Adve ture Day daytime, but more predictably.

The DMG sounds like it will be close to completely different, on the other hand.

 

[Reynard]

But this is the important part: they are refined components in the same mathematical framework. The newer Mosntera work with the existing 5E CR a d Adve ture Day daytime, but more predictably.

Which is a problem. The system as presented is actively worse than useless: it gives bad outcomes if you follow it. So either they are fixing it, which means you have to watch out for the changes, or they aren't, which means you have to continue to use 3PP or homebrew to make it work so why would you ever pay them for a new MM.

MotM is one of the worst products I have spent money on. It promised to solve problems it had no intention of solving, and gave next to nothing back for the cost of the book. If that is the template for the new MM, folks are better off saving themselves $60 and just using the 5E MM, or using that money to buy a 3PP MM that actually tries to solve the problem.

So which is it? Is WotC trying to trick you into buying the new MM, or are they lying to you about compatibility?

 

[Parmandur]

Which is a problem. The system as presented is actively worse than useless: it gives bad outcomes if you follow it. So either they are fixing it, which means you have to watch out for the changes, or they aren't, which means you have to continue to use 3PP or homebrew to make it work so why would you ever pay them for a new MM.

MotM is one of the worst products I have spent money on. It promised to solve problems it had no intention of solving, and gave next to nothing back for the cost of the book. If that is the template for the new MM, folks are better off saving themselves $60 and just using the 5E MM, or using that money to buy a 3PP MM that actually tries to solve the problem.

So which is it? Is WotC trying to trick you into buying the new MM, or are they lying to you about compatibility?

The system is fine, they have e gotten better at designing moving parts (Monsters, Spells, etc.) in it in the past decade to create a consistent result. Kthing with the structure needs changing, and the nature of 5E means the new and old options can mix juat fine.

If you don't see MotM as a big improvement for Specues and Monster design, then yeah, the new books might not float your boat. I have found differently.

 

[Reynard]

The system is fine

It definitely is not "fine." It is broken. Easily demonstrably so.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

It is very strange to be presented with an argument that at once says that there is no appreciable difference between the old version and the new, and that the new version will also be better. Frankly, it doesn't make sense and at best sounds like folks that want to have their cake and eat it to. At worst, it sounds like marketing BS that will ultimately result in early adopters feeling cheated and swindled, fueling a backlash even worse than the 3.5 one.

In the end, we don't actually have enough info yet, especially in regards to non-PHB changes. Optimists can assume that WotC will fulfill its promises and not undermine existing products, but those of us old enough to remember 3E to e.5 and 3.5 to 4E know better.

While it true we don’t have all information yet, we do have a good idea of where things of going: we have what WotC has said (CRs will not change, monsters will be better balanced, they are making changes to make them more interesting/ easier to play) and the changes they have made in recent books (which they said are previews of monster changes) which match these goals. Fizban’s, Bigby’s, and Planescape display this philosophy well, MMotM too.

Basically, monsters will get minor tweaks to:

1. Make them reflect their CR more accurately (if needed)
2. Make them easier to play (removing slot based spellcasting)
3. Make them more interesting (one unique thing)

Those changes (some will not even need changes to comply) make the monsters different, but don’t (in theory) change the challenge of the monster. That is why (in theory) you should be able to use either ‘14 or ‘24 monsters in adventures from before or after 2024. They do not need conversion or swapping out because they are the same CR.

Now, it remains to be seen if they can execute that plan, but that is clearly the intent. So I think that your idea that monsters have to swapped out like 1e to 5e is clearly not the intent and has less supporting evidence

 

[Parmandur]

It definitely is not "fine." It is broken. Easily demonstrably so.

No, it really isn't. Again, they have gotten better at designing the modular bits for the system, bit the structure doesn't need any change...whixhbis why they haven't been testing any structural change.