D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 262 53.0%
  • Nope

    Votes: 232 47.0%

I feel like I've been incredibly clear and consistent if you go back through my posts on the subject. 5e shifted backgrounds in that way and I've made no obfuscations to the contrary. In making that shift wotc presented them in a way that encourages players with a bad expectation to dig in and double down when unreasonable expectations are challenged by a gm attempting to push back. There's no reason to go into it again because I feel like my previous posts in this exchange do a good enough job covering the bad expectations and how the presentation reinforces them with little value other than raising the bar to push back against a player holding bad expectations.
I don't see why you need to push back at all. If a player has the criminal background, which allows him or her to communicate with their contact possibly over long distances, why is that a bad thing?

If you were going to run a game where having a criminal background wasn't going to be useful, then you shouldn't have allowed it to begin with, or been up front about it's limitations during the same conversation postulated in the DMG.

There's no "bad expectation". Simply an expectation that if you are allowed to choose a background, then your DM will work with you to make it matter.
 

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So when they say:
View attachment 350449
Your contention is that features are not equal to proficiencies and languages, and are not intended to be a concrete benefit? Why even use the word concrete instead of simply "benefit"?

Why give features such definitive language that say "you can expect this" "you can do this thing" "people will support you" if this wasn't intended to be a method you can (more or less reliably) use to influence the story?

Why not instead say "you may suggest to your DM that your background could possibly grant you an advantage" if that's what they intended?
I am talking practical reality versus a strict theory based on close reading: that is what the text says, but it never worked that way, not since the books started seeing real world play. The way they work in practice, and have always worked in teal play, matches how the revisions are worded, hence why it is being revised.
 

I don't see why you need to push back at all. If a player has the criminal background, which allows him or her to communicate with their contact possibly over long distances, why is that a bad thing?

If you were going to run a game where having a criminal background wasn't going to be useful, then you shouldn't have allowed it to begin with, or been up front about it's limitations during the same conversation postulated in the DMG.

There's no "bad expectation". Simply an expectation that if you are allowed to choose a background, then your DM will work with you to make it matter.
You should see why though... I've been clear about what kinds of things a gm needs to pushback on from the start
I think there's been a lot of discussion about one over the last couple pages since 1033 brought up the incongruity caused by the noble background & the "position of privilege" background feature it has on PHB135. It's a good one too because I've seen so many PCs with the noble background trying to do heavy duty worldbuilding to:
  • create a noble family
    • define its place in the world including what it does with whom all the way to things like declaring said family has power
  • create organizations & such that it "owns" from hammerspace like "my family has a branch of our $flowershopGuild in this town and... [you get where this 'and' is going]"
  • define how others like $NPC view it to the GM rather than asking the GM or engaging in any sort of discussion
  • etc
Telling me that the gm shouldn't need to pushback to excuse the lack of support for them in the rules text that reinforces poor expectations once more demonstrates the exact manner 5e provides support to players with bad expectations while tearing the rug out from under the gm across the table.
 

You should see why though... I've been clear about what kinds of things a gm needs to pushback on from the start

Telling me that the gm shouldn't need to pushback to excuse the lack of support for them in the rules text that reinforces poor expectations once more demonstrates the exact manner 5e provides support to players with bad expectations while tearing the rug out from under the gm across the table.
But again this is something you're meant to talk about before play begins. I posted the relevant section where it says very clearly that "This their opportunity to tie their characters' history and background to the campaign, and a chance for you (ie, the DM!) to determine how the various elements of each character's background tie into the campaign's story. For example, what secret has the hermit's character learned? What is the status of the noble character's family? What is the folk hero's destiny?"

The DMG is very clear here, there's no need for "pushback"- you decide if you can work with a background or not, and you decide how that will play out, and you tell the players. If it's not to their satisfaction, then they can play something else or not at all if there's no compromise here.

Backgrounds were apparently conceived with the idea that 5e should be a collaborative gaming experience where the players and DM work together to tell a story, and the players can interject their background into the narrative. They are a tool for both player and DM- if the story stalls, "oh hey, you recognize someone from your old guild". Or a fellow noble. Or what have you.

What I get from your statements is that players are jack-booted thugs who demand to be allowed to use their backgrounds to override the DM's well-crafted plot (/tongue firmly in cheek), leaving the DM with no recourse.

When it was up to the DM to make allowances for backgrounds in the first place, and weave them into their plot. And if you as a DM don't want to do this, for whatever reason, you should be clear up front "your backgrounds will not have that level of power in my game", the same way you can restrict races, classes, subclasses, feats, or anything else in your game.

I have had the experience where a DM told me that he didn't see how I could apply my noble background the one time it would have come in handy. But we never had any discussion about how my being a noble would impact the game, I simply chose it because I thought it would be a neat backstory.

And I noticed that this seems fairly common for DM's to think of backgrounds as an afterthought, and it's equally common for people to just use custom backgrounds to get the proficiencies they want and not have features, because they likely will never come into play.

And the next PHB will reflect this attitude.

Now, is this WotC's fault? Certainly, they could have given the DM more guidance here, and maybe they should have realized that not every DM is going to want to give their players this kind of latitude. But it's not like the books are lying about their intent when they were written- there is no misleading going on here (at least, for this topic).

Should they have reinforced this intent in the intervening years? Maybe, but I think it's perfectly legitimate, when you see that your end product isn't being used as intended, to shrug and let them do their thing. WotC was making money, people seemed happy with 5e, so why rock the boat?
 

But again this is something you're meant to talk about before play begins. I posted the relevant section where it says very clearly that "This their opportunity to tie their characters' history and background to the campaign, and a chance for you (ie, the DM!) to determine how the various elements of each character's background tie into the campaign's story. For example, what secret has the hermit's character learned? What is the status of the noble character's family? What is the folk hero's destiny?"

The DMG is very clear here, there's no need for "pushback"- you decide if you can work with a background or not, and you decide how that will play out, and you tell the players. If it's not to their satisfaction, then they can play something else or not at all if there's no compromise here.

Backgrounds were apparently conceived with the idea that 5e should be a collaborative gaming experience where the players and DM work together to tell a story, and the players can interject their background into the narrative. They are a tool for both player and DM- if the story stalls, "oh hey, you recognize someone from your old guild". Or a fellow noble. Or what have you.

What I get from your statements is that players are jack-booted thugs who demand to be allowed to use their backgrounds to override the DM's well-crafted plot (/tongue firmly in cheek), leaving the DM with no recourse.

When it was up to the DM to make allowances for backgrounds in the first place, and weave them into their plot. And if you as a DM don't want to do this, for whatever reason, you should be clear up front "your backgrounds will not have that level of power in my game", the same way you can restrict races, classes, subclasses, feats, or anything else in your game.

I have had the experience where a DM told me that he didn't see how I could apply my noble background the one time it would have come in handy. But we never had any discussion about how my being a noble would impact the game, I simply chose it because I thought it would be a neat backstory.

And I noticed that this seems fairly common for DM's to think of backgrounds as an afterthought, and it's equally common for people to just use custom backgrounds to get the proficiencies they want and not have features, because they likely will never come into play.

And the next PHB will reflect this attitude.

Now, is this WotC's fault? Certainly, they could have given the DM more guidance here, and maybe they should have realized that not every DM is going to want to give their players this kind of latitude. But it's not like the books are lying about their intent when they were written- there is no misleading going on here (at least, for this topic).

Should they have reinforced this intent in the intervening years? Maybe, but I think it's perfectly legitimate, when you see that your end product isn't being used as intended, to shrug and let them do their thing. WotC was making money, people seemed happy with 5e, so why rock the boat?
Do you see session zero happening before or after play? I talked about it in 1063 1093 & likely others like 1050 where without using the word "zero" I explained how the text makes it difficult in general or in session zero itself for the gm while ensuring that incorrect assumptions from a player are reinforced. You've literally been demonstrating the way it sandbags the gm by allowing a player to confidently argue with absolute certainty that the GM is wrong.

You are still demonstrating it because his is not an issue the GM can resolve during session zero where all the player needs to do is say whatever it takes to stop what they see as unjust nagging without getting trapped. Once the player has moved past the nagging without getting caught in what they are absolutely certain is unreasonable they are free to slowly ease back to what they feel is guaranteed as described in 1053 1057 & no doubt others you quoted while asserting the player's right to enjoy something else just as a player can do if ever challenged in the future.
 

I see session zero happening before character creation. Ie, the exact moment where you should be discussing how backgrounds will fit (or not) in a campaign. You keep saying a GM cannot resolve this, and of course they can, why wouldn't they be able to?

And who, exactly is being unjustly nagged? I think anyone having the problems you describe should find a better group of people to play fun games with. I'm sorry but I'm finding your arguments difficult to justify- D&D isn't intended to be a player vs. DM game- the PHB tells players background features do useful things. The DMG tells the DM to work with the players to make sure background features do useful things.

If background features are not doing useful things, then it's not the fault of the PHB and the DMG. It's the fault of the DM who doesn't want them to do useful things.

Now someone might say "aha, but what if the DM doesn't want a background feature to do something the way a player wants?". I guess the question is, why? Surely the DM knew what background the player wanted to take. Why was there no discussion about this? Why would someone just blindly let a player enter the game as a criminal and then balk when the player wants to call upon their criminal contacts in the game?

Just don't let them be criminals! Tell everyone custom backgrounds only! It's not that hard.
 

Without opening the book cite the page number and quote the relevant section that you feel makes an ironclad case supporting a gm pushing back against a player who read the background section and came away certain of the bad expectations it reinforces. Since that's not a reasonable ask for the gm to accomplish in the middle of session zero just time how long it takes you to find and accomplish that while the player is making their case to the other players for what they feel are unreasonable boundaries being set by the gm.

At best you are stretching beyond any reasonable level to tiptoe around the impact of changes to how backgrounds are presented
Sorry Tetrasodium, but I am so confused. I literally replied they should read the Introduction of the PHB. It does not mean recite. It means read. If you are asking me to recall from memory without opening the book (which no session zero would ever do), then maybe the second page. The part where it explains to the players that the D&D verse is vast, but the DM is the final authority. It is also in the DMG's Introduction. It is alos in Tasha's Introduction. It is also in Xanathar's Introduction.

I don't understand why you just can't admit that it is a reading comprehension problem, or possibly a problem with not reading the rulebook as a whole. If you want the same advice that exists in all those introductions of ALL FOUR PLAYER BOOKS, then I will agree. Put the same thing in the backgrounds. Put it in. Use the same verbiage. If that makes you feel better, then I don't object to it.

But to deliberately say these backgrounds cause an issue because it doesn't tell the player the DM might object or modify is patently false. To say they are a problem in specific campaign settings because session zero doesn't work is patently false.

Now, if you were to come to me and argue that players in their own right just take on things without reading the rules, then I will be in full agreement. But that is a reading problem. The books are very clear. The problem is many players at the table never (and I mean never) read the rulebooks.
 


I don't see why you need to push back at all. If a player has the criminal background, which allows him or her to communicate with their contact possibly over long distances, why is that a bad thing?

If you were going to run a game where having a criminal background wasn't going to be useful, then you shouldn't have allowed it to begin with, or been up front about it's limitations during the same conversation postulated in the DMG.
How the hell do I-as-DM know which backgrounds might or might not be useful over the next 10+ years of adventuring, most of which isn't even thought of yet never mind planned out.
There's no "bad expectation". Simply an expectation that if you are allowed to choose a background, then your DM will work with you to make it matter.
That's a bad expectation right there.

Backgrounds IMO really shouldn't be anything other than player-side fluff to help you give your character more character. If your background happens to come up during play, then fine; but you've no reason to expect or insist that it ever will. And yes, some backgrounds are inherently more useful more often in the field than others, which is why I'd prefer they be random-rolled rather than chosen.
 


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