D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[James Gasik]

It depended heavily on what kinds of enemies you faced. Tons of minions and standards coming at you in droves? Defender can't hold all of them, but a Controller can clear the field easily, though often dangerously. Mostly Solos and Elites with a few bodyguards? Defender is your best friend.

Some bucked the trends, e.g. Invokers were almost always party friendly, and Fighters were actually quite good at dishing out pain to a lot of enemies if they wished to (wasn't automatic but was a well-supported choice.)

The main problem with Defenders was how easy some of them were to disable. Forced movement, daze, stun, enemies with high mobility or teleportation- when I played to Epic Tier in Scales of War, our Fighter became more and more annoyed at how often enemies could avoid any punishment whatsoever, and it was usually my Ranger who was locking down enemies (had a nice combo of feats that let me slow things on hit, then knock prone anything I hit that was slowed, then ignore the prone penalty with a +2 to hit, and with several ways to hit three times or more in a round, I could render even a solo laying on his back unable to close into melee with anything).

Add our Cleric dazing and gifting enemies with vulnerability to all damage and even the most grueling fights were winnable.

I remember the night the Fighter threw in the towel and asked if he could come in as a Striker. We were facing these "Angels of Tiamat" that threw a mark on you, and could instantly teleport to your location every turn. As they could also fly, the ways the Fighter had to deal with them were woefully limited, and they were able to gang up on anyone they chose with impunity, so it quickly became a damage race. He was reduced to making ranged basics to actually mark them, in the hopes the -2 to hit would actually matter.

The best experience I ever had as a Defender, curiously, was in a party with a Archer Warlord, because he could effortlessly put me in the best position on the field when it wasn't even my turn- he would usually open with this move, I think it was called Race the Arrow, where he'd shoot something and then be like "ok, James, go charge that guy." I started picking up items that granted bonuses to charge because of that, and there were fights where I felt like a damn pinball, being bounced from one enemy to another.

 

[ECMO3]

You don't need to dodge if the enemy's dead already.

Right but when it is your turn to take an action if the enemy has too many hit points to kill in one action he won't be dead, and even if one enemy is dead others aren't. Dodge typically applies advantage to everyone that attacks you, including the guy that steps over the dead body when your Wizard or Rogue kills the guy in front of you.

My experience tells me otherwise.

Your experience is 4 years out of date by your own admission.

Nah, there's a limit to that because of what's on the pages.

Absolutely there are limits as each class has mechanics, but fighters can sacrifice weapon combat capability to be better at other areas. All classes more or less can make similar tradeoffs and that is what is great at 5E. You are not locked in to one play style just because you chose a specific class.

So a homebrew class?

I'm not sure I understand the question. We don;t play a lot of homebrew at the tables I play, but if there is a need for it we do.

'Cary no weapon' when most of the Battlemaster abilities actually require you to attack to get the effect?

Most, but the thing is if you want to build a character that helps others you won't be using most battlemaster maneuvers. You will primarily be using Rally, Commanders Strike, Bait and Switch you will be getting the fighting style and the feats for more maneuver dice, not for more maneuvers themselves.

I am not suggesting it is optimal, but it is viable if you want to play that way. People act like that capability doesn't exist, but it does.

THAT is building a character wrong. And how long exactly would it take for all that stuff to get online? Halfway through the campaign?

Your first maneuver comes online at level 1, probably Commanders Strike. The other three you use (Rally, Bait and Switch, Commanding Presence) and 4 more dice come online at level 3. Your final die and another two mostly unused maneuvers (Ambush, Tactical Assessment) come online at level 6.

So here is the breakdown:
1: Commanders Strike (1 time per short rest)
3: Rally, Bait and Switch, Commanding presence (5 dice total per short rest)
4. Bountiful Luck (unlimited, once a round)
6. Tactical Assessment, Abush (6 dice total per short rest)
8. Gift of the Metallic Dragon
12: Magic Initiate
14: Fey Touched

If a Wizard can be a Wizard at level 1, I want to be a Warlord at level 1. That's the crux of it, innit?

Ok. I don't get your point. With a fighter (or any class with a Variant Human), you can get commanders strike at level 1.
This is in addition to proficiency in all weapons and all armor, something a 4E Warlord did not have.

Can't be that unpopular if 1/4 of every 4e Class was a leader and people liked them. Clerics, Warlords, Bards, Shamans, I've seen or played them myself. In 4e, people loved the Leaders handing out bonuses, they loved the Defenders keeping enemies off of them and they loved the Strikers wth their big numbers.

4E was a different game, at a different time, and the people playing it were different. This is like saying limiting females to a lower strength must be popular because those were the rules during the heyday of 1E, which is the only version that was comparable to 5E in sales. Despite being objectively biased, that was as a point of fact popular in 1980 and would be VERY unpopular today. To be clear, I don't think your example is that extreme, but the point is just because something was popular 10 years ago, does not mean it would be popular today.

I don't think helping others is popular in 5E and when you see people play Clerics, many of them are not the stereotypical walking hospitals the class was built around for the first 40 years of the game. Another example - In 5E most Bards stop handing out inspiration regularly after 3rd level, despite the short rest recharge mechanic that gives them a ton of it at 5th level. This is true even though inspiration is generally more powerful than the subclass options for spending it. Even so, people generally prefer instead to use it to fuel their Bard powers.

The Controllers, now those are the ones I bet were not very popular.

Not really that popular no, but more popular I think than buffing/helping classes are.

 

[Justice and Rule]

The same reason skill checks as an action in combat exist. There are rare instances where it makes sense, but SOW-disengage is not a great use of ki or especially powerful and if you made it resource free it would not substantially change the power level of the Monk because dodging as a bonus is MUCH better, even if disengage was free.

Also if you really like resource-free bonus action disengage, you can get it for free on a Monk by playng a Goblin (and get bonus action hide and fury of the small as well).

But again: why not just give it for free? It already incurs cost by taking your bonus action in a class relying on them, so what's the point in also making it take up all your "Cool Thing" points? When it's something so situational, double-paying makes it even less desirable. This is a big problem with the monk's class design.

 

[ECMO3]

But again: why not just give it for free? It already incurs cost by taking your bonus action in a class relying on them, so what's the point in also making it take up all your "Cool Thing" points? When it's something so situational, double-paying makes it even less desirable. This is a big problem with the monk's class design.

Are you talking about Patient Defense or Step of the Wind-Disengage?

Giving out Disengage for free on a bonus action is not a big deal and at high level it will very rarely be used. It would be used at low level occasionally when out of ki or in other situational cases.

Free Dash as a bonus is a bit more problematic on a Monk, only because their movement gets so high and you are doubling it, but still not particularly powerful.

Dodge f as a bonus action for free though would be WAY OP.

 

[Undrave]

Oh it is good. I thought it "does not advance the game".

It's not an action, it doesn't need to advance the game state.

Not really devastating because the damage is not overwhelming unless you have Rogue levels or GWM and using Reckless attack kills any ability you had to tank (as does wielding heavy weapons). But it is an ability and it is pretty darn useful (when not tanking).

Or you get a crit.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not an action, it doesn't need to advance the game state.

Or you get a crit.

If I’m at 1 hp I don’t want the state of the game to advance anymore

 

[Justice and Rule]

Are you talking about Patient Defense or Step of the Wind-Disengage?

Giving out Disengage for free on a bonus action is not a big deal and at high level it will very rarely be used. It would be used at low level occasionally when out of ki or in other situational cases.

Free Dash as a bonus is a bit more problematic on a Monk, only because their movement gets so high and you are doubling it, but still not particularly powerful.

I mean, being fast is part of the Monk's thing, though. It is a small augment to the ability to cruise up vertical surfaces/running across liquids, but largely by saving a single ki point.

Dodge f as a bonus action for free though would be WAY OP.

I don't really see it, tbh. You can tank a bit, but you don't have the hit points to take a huge hit, your AC isn't going to necessarily be as high as other classes and to-hit bonuses for enemies is generally enough to mean that even with Disadvantage you can still take hits.

More than that, it's an active choice you are making to tank, taking away a bunch of your class weapons: you take away Flurry of Blows, which allows for Stunning Strike, all the Open Fist powers, the Shadow Step, etc. You're making a very active choice to tank rather than just doing it, which I think is more interesting as a tactical decision and is cool because it gives the Monk a different sort of defense beyond the passive "Dex+Wis" idea.

 

[Undrave]

The main problem with Defenders was how easy some of them were to disable. Forced movement, daze, stun, enemies with high mobility or teleportation- when I played to Epic Tier in Scales of War, our Fighter became more and more annoyed at how often enemies could avoid any punishment whatsoever, and it was usually my Ranger who was locking down enemies (had a nice combo of feats that let me slow things on hit, then knock prone anything I hit that was slowed, then ignore the prone penalty with a +2 to hit, and with several ways to hit three times or more in a round, I could render even a solo laying on his back unable to close into melee with anything).

Sometimes, the enemy going out of their way to avoid triggering your mark is just as important as them triggering it at all. It's something you have to realize as a Defender: most of the time, you won't get to use the Mark ability, but it's okay because it means the enemy is changing its behavior because of you.

The best experience I ever had as a Defender, curiously, was in a party with a Archer Warlord, because he could effortlessly put me in the best position on the field when it wasn't even my turn- he would usually open with this move, I think it was called Race the Arrow, where he'd shoot something and then be like "ok, James, go charge that guy." I started picking up items that granted bonuses to charge because of that, and there were fights where I felt like a damn pinball, being bounced from one enemy to another.

Synergy between team mates is so fantastic... I really miss this.

Most, but the thing is if you want to build a character that helps others you won't be using most battlemaster maneuvers. You will primarily be using Rally, Commanders Strike, Bait and Switch you will be getting the fighting style and the feats for more maneuver dice, not for more maneuvers themselves.

What about Maneuvring Attack?

Your first maneuver comes online at level 1, probably Commanders Strike.

Once per short rest. With a non-sacling dice. That's not being a Warlord.

Ok. I don't get your point. With a fighter (or any class with a Variant Human), you can get commanders strike at level 1.
This is in addition to proficiency in all weapons and all armor, something a 4E Warlord did not have.

Getting to be a Warlord once per short rest is NOT the same as being a Warlord at level 1. A level 1 Rogue gets expertise and sneak attack, a level 1 Caster gets Cantrips, a level 1 Fighter gets Fighting Style, a level 1 Monk gets Martial Arts (We don't talk about the Paladin). Everybody gets to BE their class all the time at level 1. THAT is what I want.

Your build doesn't give me that. It doesn't even give it to me at level 3 because nothing you offer is at will. Also, the maneuver Style and Feats are GARBAGE. Total trap and waste of time.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Getting to be a Warlord once per short rest is NOT the same as being a Warlord at level 1. A level 1 Rogue gets expertise and sneak attack, a level 1 Caster gets Cantrips, a level 1 Fighter gets Fighting Style, a level 1 Monk gets Martial Arts (We don't talk about the Paladin). Everybody gets to BE their class all the time at level 1. THAT is what I want.

Your build doesn't give me that. It doesn't even give it to me at level 3 because nothing you offer is at will. Also, the maneuver Style and Feats are GARBAGE. Total trap and waste of time.

Honestly one of the biggest things that allowed PF2 to find its footing that it took from 4E was its "You multiclass by taking feats", which ended up allowing the early levels of a class to be distinct and interesting because you couldn't just dip in for the good stuff. The problems with early-level D&D is that they have to take precautions on giving you too much early on because dippers will use and abuse it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sometimes, the enemy going out of their way to avoid triggering your mark is just as important as them triggering it at all. It's something you have to realize as a Defender: most of the time, you won't get to use the Mark ability, but it's okay because it means the enemy is changing its behavior because of you.

Synergy between team mates is so fantastic... I really miss this.

What about Maneuvring Attack?

Once per short rest. With a non-sacling dice. That's not being a Warlord.

Getting to be a Warlord once per short rest is NOT the same as being a Warlord at level 1. A level 1 Rogue gets expertise and sneak attack, a level 1 Caster gets Cantrips, a level 1 Fighter gets Fighting Style, a level 1 Monk gets Martial Arts (We don't talk about the Paladin). Everybody gets to BE their class all the time at level 1. THAT is what I want.

Your build doesn't give me that. It doesn't even give it to me at level 3 because nothing you offer is at will. Also, the maneuver Style and Feats are GARBAGE. Total trap and waste of time.

I’m curious, What combination of abilities would it take to be a warlord at level 1?