D&D 5E Convince me that the Ranger is a necessary Class.

[Maxperson]

Look at the photos you are posting. These muscles are MUCH closer to the size of the gymnasts muscles than they are to the body builders muscles. MUCH closer.

Put the photos side by side.

Yes. I know. Right now I'm saying that they are bigger than the gymnasts and they are. They are also differently trained muscles. If the gymnast trained his muscles the same way, he'd be screwed. The gymnast is still splitting his muscles job three ways. Strength, agility and endurance. The heavy lifter not so much.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But the bodybuilder is ALSO splitting their muscularity up to make themselves look shredded. That's what people are trying to explain.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes. I know. Right now I'm saying that they are bigger than the gymnasts and they are. They are also differently trained muscles. If the gymnast trained his muscles the same way, he'd be screwed. The gymnast is still splitting his muscles job three ways. Strength, agility and endurance. The heavy lifter not so much.

But even if true (and I would say it is doubtful) the absolutely refutes the idea that big muscles = strength because the guy with the biggest muscles is nowhere close to being the strongest.

 

[ezo]

Again, "big muscles" is a very big part of strength. Professional bodybuilders are strong, folks. Those big muscles are not entirely for show.

And the strongest guys in the world (and gals!) do have "big muscles" as well, even if they aren't shredded for show. Of course, body weight adds to force. So, if you want to be able to move heavy weights, being a heavy weight yourself ( ) makes it that much easier.

Finally, Strength is not just about your ability to exert raw physical force, but your athletic training and bodily power.

My breakdown would be the following. Of course, individual cases will vary...

• Bodybuilders have good athletic training, very good bodily power and raw physical force.
• Strongpeople have incredible raw physical force, good athletic training, and good bodily power.
• Gymnasts have incredible athletic training and bodily power, and in many cases good raw physical force.

Of course, when it comes to 5E carry capacity and lift/drag/push, D&D uses the entire score, which doesn't make as much sense for someone like a gymnast, who would have a good Strength score, compared to a strongperson would could lift much more giving the same Strength score. There is also the impact on Athletics, breaking/bending, and attack bonus/damage.

• In terms of the Athletics-aspect, gymnast would benefit most by far, strongpeople next, and bodybuilders last.
• In terms of breaking, bending, etc. the strongperson would benefit most, then the bodybuilder, and last the gymnast.
• In terms of attacks and "hard hitting" damage, it isn't quite as clear-cut IMO. Obviously, being bigger and heavier, strongpeople (and to a lesser degree bodybuilders) would benefit, but gymnasts also have a great amount of explosive power in their movement, so I don't think would be very far behind, but probably a decent amount back.

A note when it comes to the attack bonus from Strength: IMO that comes from the hard-hitting aspect, being able to penetrate armor (natural or otherwise) and partly from bodily "control" (an aspect of bodily power maybe?). Now, there is some ambiguity when it comes to the last part, since traditionally most people contribute that to Dexterity (agility and balance, both associated with hand-eye coordination).

That's how I balance it all in my head, anyway.

 

[CreamCloud0]

i think this tangent into muscles and bodybuilders might be a bit besides the point to species like goliath and firbolg who's strength mainly originates due to being very big in scale rather than musculature.

 

[Aldarc]

They're atavisms that remain in the game because people have built narratives in their mind canon that make them workable, and their familiarity is comfortable.

The fact that people build contradictory narratives around them that make them argue is proof of their flexibility.

Yeah. I would argue at this point that they mainly exist for the purpose of mechanical differentiation between characters.

 

[ezo]

i think this tangent into muscles and bodybuilders might be a bit besides the point to species like goliath and firbolg who's strength mainly originates due to being very big in scale rather than musculature.

It also has little to do with rangers, who are more often Dex-based than Strength...

 

[Shardstone]

It also has little to do with rangers, who are more often Dex-based than Strength...

Weak response. A better response is musculatur never has anything to deal with Rangers, period. No one is making their Ranger character and thinking about their biceps and triceps and their big, sweaty, glistening, pumped up pectorials. Well, they might be, but that's all fluff independent of ability scores, and the Ranger wants EITHER Str or Dex and then Wis. Don't know how we even got on this tangent.

 

[ezo]

Weak response.

Are you intentionally trying to be insulting or just accidentally doing it?

A better response is musculatur never has anything to deal with Rangers, period. No one is making their Ranger character and thinking about their biceps and triceps and their big, sweaty, glistening, pumped up pectorials. Well, they might be, but that's all fluff independent of ability scores, and the Ranger wants EITHER Str or Dex and then Wis. Don't know how we even got on this tangent.

Which is precisely why I said it has "little to do with rangers."

 

[steeldragons]

No one is making their Ranger character and thinking about their biceps and triceps and their big, sweaty, glistening, pumped up pectorials.

I will thank you, sir/madame/they, not to speak for me! Love me some sweaty....glistenin'...pumped up...."pectorials."

"Hot....sweaty men....with muscles...BULgin'..."

"BLANCHE! Get a hold of yourself!"

Well, they might be, but that's all fluff independent of ability scores, and the Ranger wants EITHER Str or Dex and then Wis. Don't know how we even got on this tangent.

My Rangers want/need Dex and CON ...with INT (knowing/have learned things) instead of Wis. But, admittedly, that is not the commonly used or official PHB ranger.