D&D 5E Should the Paladin be changed into a more generic half-caster magic knight?

[EzekielRaiden]

Cool! What's their class fiction? What does the base description of the class look like? In short, what is the magic knight outside of mechanics?

Well, Shardstone's proposal has one neat concept, that the "Pendragon" (as they call it) has been chosen by a mythical weapon destined for eventual greatness in your hands, thus drawing you down the path of weapon-focused magic.

Another option is the "rune fencer" or "magic knight" in Final Fantasy style, where they're often the best anti-magic fighters; that seems a fertile field, a class thematically and mechanically specialized in opposing and defeating enemy mages. Given the power of magic and how it can be genuinely devastating, it's honestly a little surprising that we have no class focused on that sort of thing. Even Paladin doesn't really cover that niche; they do have spells, but only the Oath of Vengeance has even a whiff of anti-magic warrior to it.

Third possibility, straight up take the Swordsage and Bo9S thematics, and fuse them with the portal-watcher faction(s?) from Eberron. An order of contemplatives, Jedi-style, that uphold ancient traditions of magical combat that serve to keep the Bad Things out of our reality. Evil "swordsages" might see celestials as nefarious pests denying individuals the right to take what they can with their own strength, while good ones might see themselves as the quiet guardians who ensure that dangerous things from the outer planes or even Far Realm remain far away from innocent mortals.

I assume three proposals (albeit one of them not my own) is adequate to show that we can articulate some useful and distinct fiction? I certainly hope this isn't a prelude to saying (effectively) "well why couldn't that just be a new Paladin oath/Fighter archetype/Ranger subclass/etc." You know how I feel about replacing an entire class idea with a mere subclass, especially if it's a Fighter subclass.

 

[Mind of tempest]

There was a thread a while ago about establishing a spellsword narrative (and even a class name).

But it very quickly became apparent that people didn't want any class identity apart from 'hit people, do magic'.

I thought it was more everyone arguing over mechanics which is always hard or people saying it is a bad idea.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well, Shardstone's proposal has one neat concept, that the "Pendragon" (as they call it) has been chosen by a mythical weapon destined for eventual greatness in your hands, thus drawing you down the path of weapon-focused magic.

Another option is the "rune fencer" or "magic knight" in Final Fantasy style, where they're often the best anti-magic fighters; that seems a fertile field, a class thematically and mechanically specialized in opposing and defeating enemy mages. Given the power of magic and how it can be genuinely devastating, it's honestly a little surprising that we have no class focused on that sort of thing. Even Paladin doesn't really cover that niche; they do have spells, but only the Oath of Vengeance has even a whiff of anti-magic warrior to it.

Third possibility, straight up take the Swordsage and Bo9S thematics, and fuse them with the portal-watcher faction(s?) from Eberron. An order of contemplatives, Jedi-style, that uphold ancient traditions of magical combat that serve to keep the Bad Things out of our reality. Evil "swordsages" might see celestials as nefarious pests denying individuals the right to take what they can with their own strength, while good ones might see themselves as the quiet guardians who ensure that dangerous things from the outer planes or even Far Realm remain far away from innocent mortals.

I assume three proposals (albeit one of them not my own) is adequate to show that we can articulate some useful and distinct fiction? I certainly hope this isn't a prelude to saying (effectively) "well why couldn't that just be a new Paladin oath/Fighter archetype/Ranger subclass/etc." You know how I feel about replacing an entire class idea with a mere subclass, especially if it's a Fighter subclass.

I think all three of these themes could work in the game if they were to be proposed as the foundation of why the class exists. For me, whenever this question of arcane half-caster came up... my instinct was always to go in the direction you mentioned in your second and third points-- the warrior defender who uses magic to protect people / society against magic, whether that be other spellcasters or magical monsters. The Witcher uses this theme, as does the video game series Dragon Age, with their Templars of the Chantry. And the fact even 5E14 had an anti-mage Feat to take tells us that its an idea that the game has wanted to have, but they've never really gone all-in on it.

The big thing I think they'd have to figure out is how this class comes about narratively in the game world. Are they knights like paladins are... noblemen-ish heavy armor-clad, sword and shield types that work for royalty or kingsguard and the like? Or are they random peoples who get "called" to service to protect a world that fears them (a la The Witcher)? Or do the Gods of Magic in the world imbue some of their servants with arcane power to go after those that abuse the gifts of the Weave (thinking that fighting 'fire with fire' would be more effective than imbuing these servants with divine power as they do their clerics and such?)

Different ways to go about it... but I just don't know if enough players would embrace any of these ideas to the point where WotC would feel like they needed to make this class. Especially if the overwhelming comment from people is always "No, we don't want that kind of specific story, we just want an empty framework of martial and caster mechanics that are different than what you get from multiclassing." But that's a concept I don't suspect we'll ever see from them.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I think all three of these themes could work in the game if they were to be proposed as the foundation of why the class exists. For me, whenever this question of arcane half-caster came up... my instinct was always to go in the direction you mentioned in your second and third points-- the warrior defender who uses magic to protect people / society against magic, whether that be other spellcasters or magical monsters. The Witcher uses this theme, as does the video game series Dragon Age, with their Templars of the Chantry. And the fact even 5E14 had an anti-mage Feat to take tells us that its an idea that the game has wanted to have, but they've never really gone all-in on it.

The big thing I think they'd have to figure out is how this class comes about narratively in the game world. Are they knights like paladins are... noblemen-ish heavy armor-clad, sword and shield types that work for royalty or kingsguard and the like? Or are they random peoples who get "called" to service to protect a world that fears them (a la The Witcher)? Or do the Gods of Magic in the world imbue some of their servants with arcane power to go after those that abuse the gifts of the Weave (thinking that fighting 'fire with fire' would be more effective than imbuing these servants with divine power as they do their clerics and such?)

Different ways to go about it... but I just don't know if enough players would embrace any of these ideas to the point where WotC would feel like they needed to make this class. Especially if the overwhelming comment from people is always "No, we don't want that kind of specific story, we just want an empty framework of martial and caster mechanics that are different than what you get from multiclassing." But that's a concept I don't suspect we'll ever see from them.

Yeah this is exactly the direction I feel that it would be a good idea to go down narratively. Individuals who use a combination of arcane magic and martial ability to protect society from magical threats such as spellcasters. I also feel that they could also lean into the idea of protecting forbidden lore and knowledge, guarding ancient tomes and magic items to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.

It would also give them a strong narrative interaction with the warlock. While the warlock is desperately trying to uncover forbidden knowledge and serve a powerful magical entity, the [insert gish class name here] is trying to prevent those exact same things from entering the world.

It also feels like a class story which doesn't interfere with either of the most common three arcane gish 'themes'. It works for the elvish duskblades, the wandering genasi swordmages, and for the death knights I see mentioned on a regular basis.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, Shardstone's proposal has one neat concept, that the "Pendragon" (as they call it) has been chosen by a mythical weapon destined for eventual greatness in your hands, thus drawing you down the path of weapon-focused magic.

Another option is the "rune fencer" or "magic knight" in Final Fantasy style, where they're often the best anti-magic fighters; that seems a fertile field, a class thematically and mechanically specialized in opposing and defeating enemy mages. Given the power of magic and how it can be genuinely devastating, it's honestly a little surprising that we have no class focused on that sort of thing. Even Paladin doesn't really cover that niche; they do have spells, but only the Oath of Vengeance has even a whiff of anti-magic warrior to it.

Third possibility, straight up take the Swordsage and Bo9S thematics, and fuse them with the portal-watcher faction(s?) from Eberron. An order of contemplatives, Jedi-style, that uphold ancient traditions of magical combat that serve to keep the Bad Things out of our reality. Evil "swordsages" might see celestials as nefarious pests denying individuals the right to take what they can with their own strength, while good ones might see themselves as the quiet guardians who ensure that dangerous things from the outer planes or even Far Realm remain far away from innocent mortals.

I assume three proposals (albeit one of them not my own) is adequate to show that we can articulate some useful and distinct fiction? I certainly hope this isn't a prelude to saying (effectively) "well why couldn't that just be a new Paladin oath/Fighter archetype/Ranger subclass/etc." You know how I feel about replacing an entire class idea with a mere subclass, especially if it's a Fighter subclass.

Those are great ideas. My asking you that question had no ulterior motives or hidden agenda, I assure you.

 

[Shardstone]

Yeah this is exactly the direction I feel that it would be a good idea to go down narratively. Individuals who use a combination of arcane magic and martial ability to protect society from magical threats such as spellcasters. I also feel that they could also lean into the idea of protecting forbidden lore and knowledge, guarding ancient tomes and magic items to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.

It would also give them a strong narrative interaction with the warlock. While the warlock is desperately trying to uncover forbidden knowledge and serve a powerful magical entity, the [insert gish class name here] is trying to prevent those exact same things from entering the world.

It also feels like a class story which doesn't interfere with either of the most common three arcane gish 'themes'. It works for the elvish duskblades, the wandering genasi swordmages, and for the death knights I see mentioned on a regular basis.

Strong idea, give me some name ideas and ill design it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The big thing I think they'd have to figure out is how this class comes about narratively in the game world. Are they knights like paladins are... noblemen-ish heavy armor-clad, sword and shield types that work for royalty or kingsguard and the like? Or are they random peoples who get "called" to service to protect a world that fears them (a la The Witcher)? Or do the Gods of Magic in the world imbue some of their servants with arcane power to go after those that abuse the gifts of the Weave (thinking that fighting 'fire with fire' would be more effective than imbuing these servants with divine power as they do their clerics and such?)

personally i think trying to give a class too much of a narrative can put people off, giving them too much of a specific identity can unintentionally stifle creativity, feeling like the class comes with a ton of lore baggage

 

[DEFCON 1]

personally i think trying to give a class too much of a narrative can put people off, giving them too much of a specific identity can unintentionally stifle creativity, feeling like the class comes with a ton of lore baggage

Yeah, but 11 out of the 13 classes have lore and theme. That's the way classes get made. The generic classes of Fighter and Rogue are there basically for legacy, not because the game wants more of that type of class.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

personally i think trying to give a class too much of a narrative can put people off, giving them too much of a specific identity can unintentionally stifle creativity, feeling like the class comes with a ton of lore baggage

Every single class except fighter has narrative guidelines (though wizard has very little). Building a narrative into the class is an expectation of DnD.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Yeah, but 11 out of the 13 classes have lore and theme. That's the way classes get made. The generic classes of Fighter and Rogue are there basically for legacy, not because the game wants more of that type of class.

I'd even argue that the existence of the fighter class is actively damaging to DnD. It prevents any other martial concepts from existing, and is so broad that I endlessly see people saying that barbarian, monk, ranger, and paladin should just be fighter subclasses.