D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

[Remathilis]

Not a great metaphor, to be fair. One can always get sushi alone, or with friends. Not having it on a date seems a reasonable sacrifice. And many would argue that the power dynamics in a traditional RPG are quite different from a romantic relationship anyway.

It's an example of an interpersonal relationship where there is no assumed hierarchy. Neither party is entitled to their will being done.

But if you want a better metaphor, try this one: the power the DM is given is based on the consent of governed, not a divine right bestowed by the DMG.

 

[Parmandur]

It's an example of an interpersonal relationship where there is no assumed hierarchy. Neither party is entitled to their will being done.

But if you want a better metaphor, try this one: the power the DM is given is based on the consent of governed, not a divine right bestowed by the DMG.

Wait, you don't believe in the Divine Right of DMs???

Le jeu, c’est moi !

 

[Micah Sweet]

RPGing is a leisure activity. People should be playing with other people because they enjoy playing with them, not because they're under some illusion of obligation arising from some other person doing work.

If a GM doesn't enjoy whatever work they are doing to prepare, they shouldn't be doing it! And they certainly shouldn't be using it as some sort of "guilt trip" to make others go along with them. That's not a good social dynamic.

You're welcome to believe that, but plenty of other gamers out there have other schools of thought, and all our opinions on the matter are valid.

 

[mamba]

Or the players have the final word, and the GM can accept it or leave the table.

I don't understand why you keep insisting on asymmetry over who is obliged to reach consensus.

there is no asymmetry in what I wrote, either one player leaves or all players leave. The latter is basically the same as the DM leaving, I see no meaningful difference between the two.

It certainly is not meant to imply that the DM was right and the players wrong. If anything it implies that you need a DM to have a game

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's an example of an interpersonal relationship where there is no assumed hierarchy. Neither party is entitled to their will being done.

But if you want a better metaphor, try this one: the power the DM is given is based on the consent of governed, not a divine right bestowed by the DMG.

The government still mostly gets to make the rules though, and there are consequences for the governed if they break them. You drive past a cop going 80, you're probably going to get pulled over, and it has little to do with your consent.

 

[mamba]

My girlfriend doesn't like sushi. I do. We can never go to a sushi place as a date. Is she imposing her will on me? What if I take her to the sushi place anyway? Am I imposing my will on her? Who decides whose will is more important?

plenty of sushi places offer some non-sushi dishes. I assume you also are willing to eat things other than sushi.

Neither will is more important, that is why neither one has to compromise against their will. The end result is that at least one person is not part of the game then however, ‘worst case’ there is no game at all

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, in traditional tabletop games the DM does the lion's share of the work. I see no problem with giving them increased authority as a result, no matter which side I'm on at the time. But I expect you know that stance, even if you don't share it.

Maybe he's only ever played with GM's who are being paid per session/hour/seat at the table?

My girlfriend doesn't like sushi. I do. We can never go to a sushi place as a date. Is she imposing her will on me? What if I take her to the sushi place anyway? Am I imposing my will on her? Who decides whose will is more important?

You are framing an interpersonal relationship as a power struggle one where you feel one party (the DM) has innate right to there will be done and the other as subservient (the player). Akin to saying since I'm the one paying for the date, I get whatever food I want regardless of my partner's preference. That all makes sense in an abstract argument on a message board, but as I point out time and again fails in real life scenarios where power dynamics aren't cut and dry.

I will reiterate that DMs who have a my-way-or-highway attitude better have a large pool of potential players lined up if they feel every disagreement ends with them winning and the player leaving. Eventually, they alienate all their players.

Now excuse me, I'm going to go back to browsing Tinder for a girl who likes sushi.

Bad metaphor. Backing up what others have already said, I just asked google to show me nearby sushi places. The closest is a Korean BBQ place that has a sushi menu. The next closest advertises "sushi thai & ramen", both are fabulous IME. The next one beyond that is a publix grocery store, beyond that is an incredible little thai place & a second publix in the other direction. saying "I'm going to $place because I want sushi, want to come?" when aced with a similar selection the hypothetical sushi hater could order something else or say no.

 

[pemerton]

I never felt like changing what one needs to do to earn XP in 1e would break the game

And yet it does!

So there you go.

Excuse me?

Without gold-for-XP, the logic of Gygax's game breaks down - because it is gold for XP that ensures the connection between player skill and PC level. Skilled players are better at getting loot out of dungeons - they explore better, scry better, plan better, map better, handle combat (including when to do it and when to avoid it) better, etc. And this skill then manifests itself in the form of levels.

This is also why Gygax is so hostile to Monty Haul play, as that sort of play - by giving arbitrary wealth, and hence XP, to unskilled players - breaks the nexus that he thinks is crucial. (I posted a quote from Gygax emphasising the nexus not too far upthread - my quote was from module S4, but the same stuff can be found in his DMG and is strongly implied in the closing pages of his PHB prior to the Appendices.)

A game without gold for XP no longer has any rationale or structure for the relationship between dungeon-delving, loot extraction, and PC development.

Now, if by "1e" you don't mean the whole game that Gygax presents, but just the PC build and combat rules, plus maybe the reaction table and the rules for doors, then sure - you can take those rules and use them in a completely different play context (where framing is not the output of a dungeon map-and-key, and skilled play is not particularly a thing). I mean, that's more-or-less what 2nd ed AD&D does. But that's not what I would call 1st ed AD&D.

 

[mamba]

A game without gold for XP no longer has any rationale or structure for the relationship between dungeon-delving, loot extraction, and PC development.

it still does, it just no longer is based on how many gold coins you haul out. Unless by this you mean it no longer is focused on such dungeon hauls and can now have other kinds of adventures too (your 1e vs 2e part)

 

[TiQuinn]

it still does, it just no longer is based on how many gold coins you haul out. Unless by this you mean it no longer is focused on such dungeon hauls and can now have other kinds of adventures too (your 1e vs 2e part)

I think it pivoted from site based adventures which is just a fancier name for dungeon delving to story based adventures which is much broader in scope. When I think about dungeon delving though, I think about the act of exploring a dungeon room by room, having to map it out, having to find its secrets, etc. There aren’t as many story based reasons to get players to want to do this. If you give players a story goal, their objective becomes that and the act of exploring becomes a time suck, a bottomless pit that they waste resources on.

Finding gold for XP is more conducive to site based adventures where the story is less important - the story is simply that you are exploring THE Tomb of Horrors, THE Temple of Elemental Evil, etc. The location itself is the most important thing, not the NPCs inside it, or the fact that you have to rescue or retrieve some item to prevent some BBEG from taking over the land. Exploring is the juice because exploring is how you find the gold that gets you the XP.