D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

[Micah Sweet]

Obviously, your experience is not all inclusive and we should not make judgements based solely on our own experience. If you can't see or create value with complex milestone advancement, then use the simple one: XP (a set # XP per level is a milestone after all).

We shouldn't, but I really have no choice.

 

[dave2008]

We shouldn't, but I really have no choice.

OK, your loss I guess. Sorry to hear it.

 

[TiQuinn]

But mamba is not correct - as per what I quoted from Gygax's PHB, there are many ways that players in classic D&D establish what the rewards are, what the risks are, how to get to the treasure, etc.

Players do not establish the rewards or the risks - that’s the DM. When Gary Gygax wrote that the unlit torch in Steading of the Hill Giant Chief is secretly a Sword of Giant Slaying with an illusion on it, that is the act of the DM or author in this case. When he puts the inevitable 500 GP gem behind the bricks of the chimney, that is the DM/author. That is not the player. When the DM says that through the front door of Fire Giant’s Hall, you will immediately land in the throne room of the Fire Giant King, that is the DM setting the challenge, I.E. the risk.

Players can act on those risks. They can choose a safer approach or a more dangerous one. They can try to find those rewards. But these are set by the DM.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Only in arguing that gold for XP is a superior method of assigning XP over story awards, the latter used in other styles of play and the former born of dungeon crashing.

I'm not ranking different methods, I was just responding to the, IMHO rather absurd, claim that it's all basically the same, that 2e's story XP is functionally the same thing as 1e's mechanically prescribed XP rules. In this I share @pemerton's view that the 1e system is substantially more objective and is aimed at a paradigm of skilled play in which the players make moves with the goal of optimizing risk/reward. Pemerton convincingly presented the evidence for this in the form of the player advice part of the 1e PHB1, where Gary spells this out in no uncertain terms.

Nowhere in the 2e text is there equivalent advice. As written 2e tells the GM to develop some sort of a story, presumably along Hickmanesque lines, and award XP in accordance with accomplishment of goals in relation to that story line, and in light of the type of aims consistent with the choice of class and alignment.

Which is better? That's purely a matter of taste.

 

[tetrasodium]

I am not really understanding your argument, can you clarify? Are you suggesting the milestone leveling some how prevents a group from controlling another player going of on a tangent? What does that have to do with leveling, XP, and milestones?

Well it's very simple.

With milestone leveling the PCs don't get experience for doing stuff so going off questing after Bob's hypothetical story while ignoring the prepared adventure doesn't come back with poor experience the gm can say "well I had to wing the whole thing on the fly" or similar.

With an edition that designs all of the math for everything to an assumed no magic items and starting gear only. Once again players don't feel that coming away from indulging Bob's on the fly story he set out forcing the GM To let him tell with on the fly adventure design with poor treasure (gold magic items etc) leaving them feeling behind the curve

Without gold for exp , exp for exp, or any of that other stuff Bob roping the group into making the gm improv the story Bob set out to tell while ignoring prepared adventure(s) just results in long periods of time between milestones and that leads to players frustrated with the GM rather than the reason they aren't accomplishing anything milestone worthy.

That sounds like lazy milestone.

And that sounds like bully milestone.

Yup

What about actual milestone XP? Where you level when beating the boss or sub boss or grabbing the mcguffin or after reaching the ruins or any of a myriad of other story-based goals?

What about it? Did you miss the part where the party is going off doing whatever the GM can do on the fly because Bob pulled them into the story he set out to tell instead of adventures that would lead to any of that sort of stuff?

 

[TiQuinn]

Nowhere in the 2e text is there equivalent advice.

Gold for XP is an optional rule. Player actions for XP down to the detail of spells cast, potions and spells made, cleric's following their ethos, rogue abilities used, fighters fighting monsters - they are all there in the 2e text.

It has all the same mechanics that you see in 1e and then some.

It awards soft skills - awards for good roleplaying, awards for clever ideas. It adds story awards with examples:

"Rescue the prince."
"Defeat the marauding orcs"
"Cleanse the haunted castle"
"Find the assassin of the late queen"

Just like with Ravenloft's goal is self-evident "Slay the Vampire", many of these are equally self-evident. Because they are not mechanically spelled out in the text of the PHB/DMG does not mean that they are not self-evident when the players sit down at the game table.

It is an invented problem.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So I assume you make sure all challenges are balanced for level 1 PCs and never use creatures of a higher CR and that PCs always have appropriate wealth per level, right?

Right?

I'm not sure what "wealth per level" is, AD&D lacks such a concept. Dungeon level one contains monsters drawn from the ranks of encounters suitable to level one PCs, yes. A small percentage of those may be stronger than average. IIRC the DMG dungeon encounter tables include a small percentage of level two and three monsters.

Good DM practice in terms of placed encounters is that they fall into these general difficulties. If a particular encounter area is unusually difficult or presents a unique challenge then this is a discoverable circumstance. Rogues should be scouting, maps acquired, rumours sought out, guides employed, etc. At the very least parties employ stealth, listening, searching, environmental clues, etc. This is all spelled out in various books and such.

If a GM employs some form of gotcha or unusual situation then either it simply ratchets up the hazard, acts as a more narrative obstacle, or has some fairly reliable (perhaps costly) way out, etc.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Well it's very simple.

With milestone leveling the PCs don't get experience for doing stuff so going off questing after Bob's hypothetical story while ignoring the prepared adventure doesn't come back with poor experience the gm can say "well I had to wing the whole thing on the fly" or similar.

<Trying desperately to follow what you're trying to illustrate.>

With an edition that designs all of the math for everything to an assumed no magic items and starting gear only. Once again players don't feel that coming away from indulging Bob's on the fly story he set out forcing the GM To let him tell with on the fly adventure design with poor treasure (gold magic items etc) leaving them feeling behind the curve

,You're losing me.

Without gold for exp , exp for exp, or any of that other stuff Bob roping the group into making the gm improv the story Bob set out to tell while ignoring prepared adventure(s) just results in long periods of time between milestones and that leads to players frustrated with the GM rather than the reason they aren't accomplishing anything milestone worthy.

I think I follow this "in theory" but it's a phenomenon that I have never experienced. Players get involved in the story because they want to be involved in it. And DM isn't so much telling the story as building it, with the player's active involvement.

Often when you and I speak, I can't understand where you're coming from, because I can't even envision what a table like you are implying would even look like. So I think that I resist your illustrations (assuming that I understand them correctly) on that basis.

Am I right that you are (generally) trying to illustrate a potential worst case scenario (as opposed to, say, your expected 'everyday' experience)? Because I think it makes more sense on that level. But I'm not sure.

What about it? Did you miss the part where the party is going off doing whatever the GM can do on the fly because Bob pulled them into the story he set out to tell instead of adventures that would lead to any of that sort of stuff?

I did probably miss that part, because I can't imagine it happening. I mean, don't get me wrong, I expect any game/story that is made by a group of individuals to include side-tangents and unforeseen routes to point B or unexpected solutions to problem Y.

That's a feature, not a flaw.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not sure what "wealth per level" is, AD&D lacks such a concept. Dungeon level one contains monsters drawn from the ranks of encounters suitable to level one PCs, yes. A small percentage of those may be stronger than average. IIRC the DMG dungeon encounter tables include a small percentage of level two and three monsters.

Good DM practice in terms of placed encounters is that they fall into these general difficulties. If a particular encounter area is unusually difficult or presents a unique challenge then this is a discoverable circumstance. Rogues should be scouting, maps acquired, rumours sought out, guides employed, etc. At the very least parties employ stealth, listening, searching, environmental clues, etc. This is all spelled out in various books and such.

If a GM employs some form of gotcha or unusual situation then either it simply ratchets up the hazard, acts as a more narrative obstacle, or has some fairly reliable (perhaps costly) way out, etc.

Wealth per level simply means appropriate amounts of treasure for that character. Not too powerful, but not too little. Likewise, you wouldn't put a powerful creature in a low level dungeon where any action taken would be a TPK. Fair challenge for fair rewards. Otherwise, I can't engage in reasonable risk/reward calculation if I enter a dungeon door and face down a creature way over my level for a little or no reward.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you for the reply

With milestone leveling the PCs don't get experience for doing stuff...

This is incorrect. The milestone is the goal that must be reached and you have to do stuff to reach it.

...so going off questing after Bob's hypothetical story while ignoring the prepared adventure doesn't come back with poor experience the gm can say "well I had to wing the whole thing on the fly" or similar.

I am not sure I am following you here. Off quest actions can still receive benefits regardless if you are using milestone or not. I don't see how this needs to differ between XP for gold or XP for monsters or XP for milestones. You just get new / different milestones if needed.

With an edition that designs all of the math for everything to an assumed no magic items and starting gear only. Once again players don't feel that coming away from indulging Bob's on the fly story he set out forcing the GM To let him tell with on the fly adventure design with poor treasure (gold magic items etc) leaving them feeling behind the curve

I can't follow you here. I am having real hard time trying to understand what you are saying / suggesting. What does Bob's idea have to do with anything? Why can't the DM or the player's say no to Bob? What does Bob's tangent having anything to do with level advancement at all? I am really not understanding the argument you are trying to make.

Without gold for exp , exp for exp, or any of that other stuff Bob roping the group into making the gm improv the story Bob set out to tell while ignoring prepared adventure(s) just results in long periods of time between milestones and that leads to players frustrated with the GM rather than the reason they aren't accomplishing anything milestone worthy.

Ok, I think I might understand what you are saying here, but this seems like quite a corner case. Regardless there are many ways to reward or, if you are so inclined, punish players / groups that go off task. This is true whether you are using milestone leveling or not. So, here are some suggestions for treatment of Bob's tangent in a milestone campaign:

1. (punitive): give nothing for the side quest to keep them focused on the prepared story. This is, IMO, one of the worst choices. It can / could lead to some of the issues you describe.
2. (reward) side quest results in gold / treasure. This could be the reward straight up (my PCs always find it rewarding to get treasure!) or it could also include key clues or items needed to help complete the main quest.
3. (reward) information. A classic reward is to get information that is important to the main quest and / or nudge them back to the main quest. Again, my PCs are always looking for more information to make solving a task easier, so this is good reward for them
4. (reward) milestone achievement. Depending on the depth and length of the side quest it can generate its own milestone(s) and leveling possibilities.

We run a pretty sandbox campaign (we don't use published adventures and I mostly DM on the fly) and I make use of options 2-4 quite a bit. I can't say for sure that it works for other groups, but it keeps my players happy and I think it should for many groups.