D&D General Why the Great Thief Debate Will Always Be With Us

It has been interesting shifting to VTT since 2020. I've noticed a good amount of gamers and GMs use the VTT as a basic dice roller and much of the game is conducted over voice chat. As VTT develop more into complete rules delivery systems, this might come to be, but so far folks are still playing rather open ended games IME.
I've been playing 5e on Fantasy Grounds for four years and we use it to handle attacks and effects so we don't have to track them. Just drag and drop and all the mechanics are done without thinking about specific DCs or what has to be done for all its knock on effects.

Some abilities are not in the system (zombies popping up is a big one I forget I have to check for myself) but not having to think about stuff like concentration and checking the DC formula but having it automatically roll that for us is very helpful.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I've been playing 5e on Fantasy Grounds for four years and we use it to handle attacks and effects so we don't have to track them. Just drag and drop and all the mechanics are done without thinking about specific DCs or what has to be done for all its knock on effects.

Some abilities are not in the system (zombies popping up is a big one I forget I have to check for myself) but not having to think about stuff like concentration and checking the DC formula but having it automatically roll that for us is very helpful.
Yeah I know the functions and they are very convenient. A lot of folks think PF2 is impossible to play without a VTT becasue of how convenient it is. I've just played a number of RPGs since 2020 that dont have that many moving and complex parts. So, at the moment I think becasue VTTs are evolving, but not peak convenience, the Gygaxian future is a ways off.
 

Another viewpoint is that once a rule is created, it lessens what can be done especially for other PCs. Rules state what you can do but they also implicit limit what you can do. No rule means you may be able to do it or you may not.

I think players intrinsically want to do what is reasonable for their PCs to be able to do.

And I am not anti-rule, but I am anti-rules heavy.
I think the pain point is how you deal with that ambiguity. Will there be fair and consistent rulings in the absence of rules? For some folks the limit of implicitly is a guideline against the unknown.
 

Yeah I know the functions and they are very convenient. A lot of folks think PF2 is impossible to play without a VTT becasue of how convenient it is. I've just played a number of RPGs since 2020 that dont have that many moving and complex parts. So, at the moment I think becasue VTTs are evolving, but not peak convenience, the Gygaxian future is a ways off.
Even with the huge mechanical convenience of FG for combat mechanics, my 5e game is hugely Arnesonian in social, exploration, and just messing around aspects.

Sometimes ad hoc narrative with no dice, sometimes light 5e skill system usage mixed with narrative, sometimes a drawn out 4e style skill challenge using 5e skills and narration. Lots of riffing and on the spot creativity based on the situation.

I don't see VTTs changing that.

I wouldn't particularly want to switch to say a social combat system to handle more social situations even if the VTT handled the mechanics quickly.
 

Even with the huge mechanical convenience of FG for combat mechanics, my 5e game is hugely Arnesonian in social, exploration, and just messing around aspects.

Sometimes ad hoc narrative with no dice, sometimes light 5e skill system usage mixed with narrative, sometimes a drawn out 4e style skill challenge using 5e skills and narration. Lots of riffing and on the spot creativity based on the situation.

I don't see VTTs changing that.

I wouldn't particularly want to switch to say a social combat system to handle more social situations even if the VTT handled the mechanics quickly.
Yeap, I think 5E is suited to both styles. It isnt so complex that its a godsend to have the convenient aspects in place, and its loose enough to handle some ambiguity.

On the subject of social mechanics, I dont think they need to be complex or stifling, though that seems to be where most folks go. Probably just a knee jerk reaction to how complex combat is.
 

There are only four certainties in life-
1. Death.
2. Even though you know better, you will respond to that person who is wrong on the internet.
3. Taxes.
4. A long, meandering post by Snarf.


Look at the bright side ... this isn't death or taxes, and I am sure you will be able to resist telling me that I am wrong...

Anyway, I wanted to go back over something I reference every now and then- "The Great Thief Debate." I realized that I never made a full post about it, and why it matters, and what it tells us about current issues and debates in RPGs. In addition, given that I have written often and at length about how awesome and amazing TTRPG jargon is, I decided to include some jargon-y terms!


A. The History That Led to the Great Thief Debate

I will sometimes refer to the "great thief debate," as one that continues to echo throughout TTRPG history. In doing so, I am talking about the introduction of the Thief class, and why it was considered controversial at the time. This is, perhaps, why Gygax subconsciously kept the thief class so underpowered while he was in charge; if you think it was bad in the PHB, don't even think of reading his further explanation destruction of thief abilities in the DMG.

So, a quick bit of history... what, you thought you could escape one of my posts without history? That would be like escaping Love Island without an STD- technically possible, but not going to happen.

Aside to newer gamers- "Thief" was one of the core four original classes in OD&D - Fighting Man (Fighter), Magic User (Wizard), Cleric (....Cleric), and Thief (Rogue). Later, it was renamed Rogue. But the thief was the original, um, "skill monkey" class.

The thief class that we are familiar with first appeared in Great Plains Game Players Newsletter #9 written by Gygax prior to OD&D (Greyhawk). But ... Gygax didn't invent the class. Gary Switzer (misattributed as Gary Scweitzer in the newsletter) had called Gygax and told him about this amazing class that had been invented and was being played at Aero Games. But but ... Switzer, apparently, also didn't invent the thief. Darrold Daniel Wagner claims that he invented the class, and Switzer simply called Gygax and told him about it. Anyway ... the original Aero Games thief used a magic user chassis, and the thief abilities were invoked like spells, not like skills. In addition, the original Aero Games thief abilities related to the idea of a box-man (traps, safes)

So Gygax borrowed the idea for the class, and made a few transmogrifications- first, he switched the spell system to a skill system using percentiles. That Gygax and his percentiles and his bespoke subsystems! He added some more stuff (sneaking, climbing) and a touch of Vance and Zelazny for a few additional abilities (reading magic scrolls at high level etc.) and released his version, which remained largely unchanged for the entire TSR run, other than Gygax continually saying, "Eh, let's nerf it some more." The Great Plains Newsletter thief is the thief that eventually ended up in AD&D (and B/X).

Technically, however, neither the Gygaxian thief nor the Aero Games thief was the first thief. The first thief was McDuck in Arneson's pre-D&D campaign. But McDuck, played by Dave Megarry (of Dungeon! fame, among many other things) didn't have "thief skills," McDuck just did "thief stuff." In other words, and this will become very important in about, oh, the very next section- McDuck didn't need thief skills, because McDuck (and other characters) just could do things like hiding in shadows. He wasn't a thief because of defined skills within a class; he was a thief because that's what the character did.


B. The First Great Debate in D&D (and RPGs)- THE GREAT THIEF DEBATE!

Okay, before getting into the debate, please allow me to re-introduce myself two "jargon" terms that I have invoked in the past. I am going to use them solely because they are a good shorthand for this topic.

1. "Gygaxian Space" is the area of play prescribed by the rules.
2. "Arnesonian Space" is the area of play not prescribed by the rules; it is the negative space that the rules do not have an answer for.

... trust me, this will become important (and more clear) shortly. But if you need a concrete example now, this is a good example- swinging a sword at a monster is in Gyaxian space. The rules tell you what you need to roll "to hit," and if you hit, the rules tell you what you need to roll for damage, and the rules tell us that the damage is subtracted from the monster's hit points. On the other hand, a lot of social interactions are traditionally partially or fully done without reference to the rules- the players and DM "roleplay" the situation. This is Arnesonian space.

The reason for the initial controversy over the thief class was that it made certain abilities ... like hiding in shadows and climbing walls and listening at doors ... enumerated and specific abilities within a particular class. For many players, this was an encroachment on the Arnesonian Space- these were all things that any character, from Fighter to Magic User, should be able to do! In effect, by codifying abilities to a certain class (expressing them as thief abilities), the game system was also excluding those abilities to other classes.

There is an old common law principle called expressio unius est exclusio alterius, which literally translated means "the expression of one thing is the exclusion of the other." For example, in its most basic form, "No dogs allowed," would mean that cats would be allowed, but not guide dogs. Or if someone says, "The pizza toppings I like are pineapple, anchovies, and kiwi fruit," you would know that this person is a monster, but also that they are excluding pepperoni from the toppings that they like. This tends to have a lot of relevance, even if we don't name it as such, in rules debates in D&D when people invoke it to say that when something is covered by a rule (it is mentioned) then that rule excludes other methods from handling it. So, for example, if a particular class has an ability, then you cannot just "do" that ability without using that rule.

To put this in my jargony highfalutin' terms- the expression of an ability in Gygaxian space foreclosed the use of the ability in Arnesonian space. It's an eternal and evergreen debate. Does codifying abilities into rules help, because it provides certainty to the player? Or does codifying hurt, because it necessarily means that without the express ability, you can no longer do it, thereby limiting players? Or, put into the less highfalutin' terms we see on the internet ... WHY U PLAY BUTTON MASHING RPGS? Or ... WHY DO YOU PLAY MOTHER MAY I? Yeah, the original debate in D&D, the great thief debate ... it's that one that we still see. It's always all or nothing on the internet- either you are demanding that players are chained to looking up stuff on their character sheet, or you are demanding that players beg permission from an arbitrary and capricious GM to do anything.

But I don't think that's a good way to look at it; RPGs (especially D&D) have always provided for the push and pull between rules codification and allowing the negative space for play within the world. In acknowledging the existence of this, I don't think that there is one right answer, or one right balance.


C. So What Does this Mean Today?

Well, a few things- first, it is always helpful to understand that "The Great Thief Debate" was there in the beginning, and will always be with us. It is also important because, moreso than most RPGs, the Gygaxian/Arnesonian divide is hardbaked into the very essence of D&D. Heck, in the mists before time, Dave Arneson began using the rules of fantasy combat rules for Chainmail in the proto-game that we now think of as D&D. Notably, in Chainmail, there were no "hit points." But as Arneson's game took shape, one thing became clear. Combat wasn't fun. Apparently, using the base rules of Chainmail (however it might have been construed) resulted in player characters getting killed every time they were hit. Which might appeal to some of us grognards (Serves you right for getting into combat, instead of sneaking around and stealing the gold!), but was very unsatisfying. So whether through the influence of Chainmail, the influence of naval wargames, or some general gestalt and his inspired ability to improv rules, Arneson started using hit points to allow player characters the ability to take multiple hits.

There, we see Arneson codifying rules to make something more fun. But as D&D moved on, we saw both the codification of rules in increasingly overcomplicated ways as well as the continued reservation of Arnesonian space that remained resistant to codification- everything from social encounters to today's "Rulings, Not Rules" space for DM adjudication. But this strange hybrid has served as both a source of strength but also a continual source of division- those who want more freeform and Arnesonian play chafe at perceived encroachments on that terrain (How dare you talk about social combat?) while those who are more comfortable with prescribed rules are uncomfortable with areas of the game that lack them (Gold is useless, because I am not told how to spend it).

Anyway, I will leave with the following idea/prediction- as D&D moves further into an on-line future, with VTT and so-on, I would expect that we will see continued expansion of the Gygaxian space, and a concomitant shrinking of the Arnesonian space.
Much of this post is weird.

So, to extrapolate...I'll write the story of the longest name of a game in D&D that no one ever uses...and why.

Back then, we did both. I've explained this numerous times, but I guess I'll explain it again.

Then, with OD&D...a character could do all that. They could walk quietly, they could Hide, they could climb, they could even try to listen at a door. What they could NOT do was Hide in a shadow that was just that...a mere shadow of a person or something. They couldn't move absolutely silently. They couldn't climb a sheer wall....etc.

So, to Walk quietly...you had to roll under the Dex Ability score or however the DM ruled it.

This wasn't a mystery. It was not some highly held secret.

So then....the thief arrives. What does this mean? Well...obviously it does NOT mean that we suddenly all forgot how to try to play hide and seek. That would be dumb. That would be stupid. No one thought that way.

It just meant that this new class had new abililties BEYOND what we already played with. Thus...the thief could try to move absolutely silently...but if they failed...well...they could still try to move quietly. They basically got double rolls.

OR...another way of doing it was that the Thief would accomplish these things automatically unless they were challenged...or had to do it under pressure...

OR...another way of doing it was that not only would the Thief accomplish normal things automatically (such as moving quietly), they could also try for the supernatural idea of hiding in the Monster's shadow when it wasn't looking...etc.

Unfortunately, the AD&D rulebooks were not that clear on this...and then we got an entire generation that thought differently and hence was born the idea that no one could play hide and seek anymore...or if they did they only could do it by rolling on the lowest tier of the thief ability tables.

And thus..in D&D....the game of Hide and Seek was never again really played as it became..."I can't hide so you can automatically find me no matter what I do...so why even seek". Yeah....it's kind of a long name for a game...but since no one ever played it again...there was never a need to shorten it anymore.

People obviously thought that playing "I can't hide so you can automatically find me no matter what I do....so why even seek" kind of foolish, so in later editions (3e and onwards) they tried to repair this by...first changing how these skills worked...and then second...by making it so that it was no longer the sole domain of Thieves and Rogues. The Skill system of 3e made it so that it was more easily accessible and changed it from being a Thief skill...to something Rogues specialized in, and later changes made it more easy for anyone to do any skill a Rogue could do.

But the problem then came...if anyone can do these things....why do we even have Rogues in the first place??? The answer...so we can have them do SNEAK ATTACKS...obviously. Rogue just became another name for some sneaky (word I probably shouldn't use so I won't) who was a martial with slightly less HP who would stab sneakily in your vitals while you tried to do in his friend.

Interestingly enough, even with that change...we still haven't had that big of a rise in the game of "I can't hide so you can automatically find me no matter what I do...so why even seek". Probably, because with the new rules it became more of a..."Hide and Seek, but only for those who are Dexterous and wise." Which is an improvement on the other one...as the name is shorter (obviously), but still not quite as popular as Hide and seek used to be.

And that's the story of the long name of the game in D&D that no one uses...but should.
 

Rules are the foundation for freedom. If you have rules, you know your capabilities and you are free. Without rules you are ignorant of your own skills.

There is no opposition between roleplaying and rules.

This is, in my opinion, the premise behind the martial/caster debate. The reason why casters are good is because they have freedom, and they have freedom because they have rules. Nobody argues that caster players cannot roleplay because they have lots of rules.

Rules are freedom because they provide a baseline of competence. A character who has an ability that says he can jump 50 feet is freer than a character who does not, because the character who does not have it likely cannot jump that distance.

Each ability that says you can do X is an assertion to that fact. It cannot be taken away. It does not rely on negotiation. It is a concrete thing. Liberating.
Rules can be the foundation of freedom.

The true foundation of freedom is reference.

The 100% true source of the caster martial divide is not because the casters have rules. It's because the casters have an agreed frame of reference from the rules but martials lack one past low levels. Almost every martial example D&D give is low level. However if the martials had an as powerful example of reference, rules or no rules, the martials zip cross the battlefield, chopping force walls, and wooing noblepersons.

But that all comes down to whatever you want to matter and what degrees of success you have.

The entire thief issue is from D&D fans agreeing that delivery should matter and that thieves should be good at thievery.

The Caster-Expert-Martial divide is due to fans not agreeing about what Martials non-combat aspects should matter and what degrees it should be.

And as you see, rules are no rules, doesn't matter if no one agrees.
 

Each ability that says you can do X is an assertion to that fact. It cannot be taken away. It does not rely on negotiation. It is a concrete thing. Liberating.
It's a matter of perspective. On one hand, if a rule says you can do X, well, you can do X. But there are also two other categories of potential actions. There are things the rules specify you can't do, and of course you can't do those. But then there's the grey area, where the rules don't specify either way – and that's what Snarf calls the Arnesonian space.

But even that needs to be divided into at least two parts. There are some things the rules are genuinely silent about. But there are also the ones about how to do X if there are abilities enabling X, but you don't have them. To take a Pathfinder 2 example off the top of my head: there's a skill in the game called Diplomacy, which you can use to either make someone like you better (Impress), or to make them do things for you (Request). There's also a skill feat (upgrade) you can take called Group Impression, which lets you Impress more than one target at once (exact numbers depend on how good you are). So my Master Diplomat can try to charm 10 people at once. But what if I don't have that feat? Do I have to spend time charming each individual target? Or can try charming more than one at a penalty? And if so, how big is that penalty?

Some would interpret the existence of a feat that says "If you have this feat, you can impress multiple people at once" as meaning "If you don't have this feat, you can't impress multiple people at once." And that's not an invalid interpretation – for example, you can't Treat Wounds on multiple people at once without the Ward Medic feat. But at the same time it rubs some people the wrong way – you should be able to talk to a crowd and impress them. And that's the tension.
 

I think the pain point is how you deal with that ambiguity. Will there be fair and consistent rulings in the absence of rules? For some folks the limit of implicitly is a guideline against the unknown.
I would never design a game to fix bad DMs. Inexperienced DMs by all means. Teach them the right ways. But a bad DM is just someone who doesn't want the game to be fun. Ditch that DM.
 

It's a matter of perspective. On one hand, if a rule says you can do X, well, you can do X. But there are also two other categories of potential actions. There are things the rules specify you can't do, and of course you can't do those. But then there's the grey area, where the rules don't specify either way – and that's what Snarf calls the Arnesonian space.

But even that needs to be divided into at least two parts. There are some things the rules are genuinely silent about. But there are also the ones about how to do X if there are abilities enabling X, but you don't have them. To take a Pathfinder 2 example off the top of my head: there's a skill in the game called Diplomacy, which you can use to either make someone like you better (Impress), or to make them do things for you (Request). There's also a skill feat (upgrade) you can take called Group Impression, which lets you Impress more than one target at once (exact numbers depend on how good you are). So my Master Diplomat can try to charm 10 people at once. But what if I don't have that feat? Do I have to spend time charming each individual target? Or can try charming more than one at a penalty? And if so, how big is that penalty?

Some would interpret the existence of a feat that says "If you have this feat, you can impress multiple people at once" as meaning "If you don't have this feat, you can't impress multiple people at once." And that's not an invalid interpretation – for example, you can't Treat Wounds on multiple people at once without the Ward Medic feat. But at the same time it rubs some people the wrong way – you should be able to talk to a crowd and impress them. And that's the tension.
Yeap, I been thinking a lot about that lately. I think Id prefer the approach of instead of being able to, or even be good at impressing a group, the feat just allows you to flat out succeed within a set of parameters. To me that signifies that its possible to do, but somebody who invests in doing it, is going to be very successful doing it.

Some may still take it as you cant do it because of the failure chance, but I think its a better approach then setting up a mechanical process based around a feat and all that implies about not having it.
 

Remove ads

Top