D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[UngeheuerLich]

My fireball comment was never about how effective it was. More of a comment that with a martial build it's difficult (if not impossible) to strike that many targets for a decent chunk of damage, whereas the wizard can offhand hit up to a score of opponents with a single spell.

It is a bit annoying, however, that splitting attacks over multiple targets tends to be subpar to focus-firing on a single target. I wish the system had some better payoff for fending off multiple attackers over "absolutely fine until dead" play.

In 2014 there were massive damage rules. Deal half max hp in one go and you force a Con save, that has quite severe effects.

Fireball was often enough able to do that to enemies.

Also: one fireball is not that great. The second one might kill the enemies. All of them. So even if one enemy is not dropped immediately. The payoff is that next time all are dropped.

Then there isnalsonrange advantage. If you can somehow slow the enemies down after dropping the fireball, chances are you get a second one out before the enemies can even do serious things to you.

So if the area damage is two times higher or so than the damage you could do to a single target, are damage is generally worth it. Especially if certain tresholds are made. (Against 4 enemies with 50 hp, doing 15 damage to everyone with a fireball is often better than doing 30 to a single one (with limited resources), if you have 2 allies that each can do 20 damage to a single target without spending resources.

Yes, both now need to focus on one enemy, to down them. But on the next turn, a second fireball will bring 2 others down to 20 hp left, so your teammates can spread out and down 2 more.

Or if they spread damage on their first turn, and spread damage on their second turn, all 4 enemies are dead after 2 turns.

Doing 30 damage to one enemy however only allows one to be killed on round 1, another is hit by 20 damage. 30 damage on the next round finishes the damaged enemy, another enemy only gets down to 10 hp left.

So in this scenario your high single target damage was way straightly inferior tonyour area damage.

Of course that scenario was constructed, but it is not unlikely to have similar wcenarios in actual games.

 

[mellored]

It is a bit annoying, however, that splitting attacks over multiple targets tends to be subpar to focus-firing on a single target. I wish the system had some better payoff for fending off multiple attackers over "absolutely fine until dead" play.

They added the bloodied condition for being below half health.

So a fireball might trigger a beserker state in a bunch of enemies.

 

[Moonmover]

Ancedotal:
I've only run/played in one session so far. I ran a party of Level 3's through the 5e version of Danger at Dunwater. They suffered a TPK* in the first encounter because they chose the most dangerous of three dungeon entrances and then split up.

No amount of power-creep can overcome bad tactics, it seems.

*Okay, so technically the monk and two NPC helpers were only captured, not killed. The players decided the mission was a failure at that point, regardless.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

They added the bloodied condition for being below half health.

So a fireball might trigger a beserker state in a bunch of enemies.

Ehhh...

True, but... the first fireball got them to half health, and the second one will kill them anyway. Small price to pay...

 

[Zardnaar]

There's no RAW definition of "drag" that I can find. The question is not of whether they enter your space, it's of what space you can "drag" another creature into (what counts as "dragging").


Given a feat pick, a 2nd level spell slot, a 3rd level spell slot, two characters concentrating, a species choice, and the actions of multiple characters: that's a 5th-level party of four committed to harming one foe.

Questions of balance come down to what is overshadowed? Does spike growth + haste + grappler + goliath become so powerful that other choices amount to trap picks? And if so, is interpreting "drag" as "drag along beside you" better justified that interpreting it in an ameliorating way?

More an extreme example.

More likely 2 level spell slot possibly the caster and 1 PC.

Still 12d4.

 

[Oofta]

There's no RAW definition of "drag" that I can find. The question is not of whether they enter your space, it's of what space you can "drag" another creature into (what counts as "dragging").

There is no "RAW" definition climbing or any number of other things. They don't need to give us definitions for those things because unlike casting a fireball, we know what dragging someone looks like.

Even if you say that someone could hold someone out to the side, you're still holding them. The 5 foot space in D&D is there for allowing space for combat maneuvers, not because people are literally 5x5 cubes. In any case, I wouldn't allow someone to drag someone through a zone without being in the zone themselves. I'm sure other tables will run it differently.

 

[FrogReaver]

More an extreme example.

More likely 2 level spell slot possibly the caster and 1 PC.

Still 12d4.

And a feat dedicated to grappling, because without it that one pc is only dragging the enemy 15 ft. Which often won’t even be enough to reach the spike growth, and at most causes 6d4 if the enemy is adjacent to the spike growth. Like it can be a really powerful tactic but a lot more focus needs made than just a single pc with a single feat.

Its also a tactic that keeps you from using the high damage options of great weapons or dual wielding anytime you try it. It’s a significant damage decrease in 2024 when using a single one handed weapon.

And these conditions still need met

• The enemy being large or smaller
• The enemy weighing less than 30x str
• The DM ruling dragging need not be behind you.

Theres so much that has to go right before the dragging an enemy actually pays off

 

[Zardnaar]

And a feat dedicated to grappling, because without it that one pc is only dragging the enemy 15 ft. Which often won’t even be enough to reach the spike growth, and at most causes 6d4 if the enemy is adjacent to the spike growth. Like it can be a really powerful tactic but a lot more focus needs made than just a single pc with a single feat.

Its also a tactic that keeps you from using the high damage options of great weapons or dual wielding anytime you try it. It’s a significant damage decrease in 2024 when using a single one handed weapon.

And these conditions still need met

• The enemy being large or smaller
• The enemy weighing less than 30x str
• The DM ruling dragging need not be behind you.

Theres so much that has to go right before the dragging an enemy actually pays off

Well the person casting the spike growth could drop it in the right spot.

If it's a moon Druid trained in athletics bonus action bear.

It's just a feat defense seems to be getting used. So was natural spell and the -5/+10 feats both of which got nerfed.

RAW there's nothing about weight while grappling. You win the roll grappled condition. Then you can move half speed or full speed with feat.

And yes if you want to you can make the athletics check trivial.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well the person casting the spike growth could drop it in the right spot.

Then it still depends on initiative. Does your ally or the enemy beside the spike growth go next? Because if the enemy does he just moves away from the spike growth. Just more uncertainty around the tactic working.

If it's a moon Druid trained in athletics bonus action bear.

So turn 1 you cast spike growth, and move up to an enemy and transform into a bear. Before your next turn the enemy just moves away, or at least moves to the other side of your bear.

Then at best it’s turn 2 before you maybe get your tactic to work. Maybe it’s even 3. What could have been done if you just attacked?

It's just a feat defense seems to be getting used. So was natural spell and the -5/+10 feats both of which got nerfed.

Its a feat means your forgoing taking something like dual wielder or great weapon master.

RAW there's nothing about weight while grappling. You win the roll grappled condition. Then you can move half speed or full speed with feat.

RAW says anytime you drag you move at 5ft when you drag over your Str X 30. Thus Grappling doesn’t need to say it.

And yes if you want to you can make the athletics check trivial.

Grappling in 2024 is no longer an athletics check to grapple. You cannot make it trivial anymore.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then it still depends on initiative. Does your ally or the enemy beside the spike growth go next? Because if the enemy does he just moves away from the spike growth. Just more uncertainty around the tactic working.

So turn 1 you cast spike growth, and move up to an enemy and transform into a bear. Before your next turn the enemy just moves away, or at least moves to the other side of your bear.

Then at best it’s turn 2 before you maybe get your tactic to work. Maybe it’s even 3. What could have been done if you just attacked?

Its a feat means your forgoing taking something like dual wielder or great weapon master.

RAW says anytime you drag you move at 5ft when you drag over your Str X 30. Thus Grappling doesn’t need to say it.

Grappling in 2024 is no longer an athletics check to grapple. You cannot make it trivial anymore.

Well anyone doing it probably has 16 strength minimum.

And the feat doesn't say your dragging them. They're not prone.

Athletics check to escape grapple saving throws to set it up.