D&D (2024) Treantmonk's Ranger DPS video:

[Charlaquin]

1d10+charisma is better than say a bit. Add hex on top and you're beating anything that's not 2014 sharpshooter.

It’s pretty easy to beat EB Hex spam for DPR in 2014…

It's also the type of damage. Force and hex.

Yes, the damage type is good. I didn’t say EB spam was a bad build, I just said it’s decent single-target DPR but nothing to write home about.

There's no -5/+10 any more.

Ok? I was talking about 2014…

New hotness seems to be dual wielding.

That depends. If you use Conjure Minor Elementals as-written with no nerfs (which personally I would not), then yeah, dual-wielding is incredibly OP. If you allow weapon swapping cheese (which personally I would), then dual wielding is very strong, about on par with greatsword. A little stronger at early levels and a little weaker at high levels, but overall comparable. If you don’t allow weapon swapping cheese, dual wielding is still good at early levels but falls behind greatsword in the mid and late game.

 

[Zardnaar]

It’s pretty easy to beat EB Hex spam for DPR in 2014…

Yes, the damage type is good. I didn’t say EB spam was a bad build, I just said it’s decent single-target DPR but nothing to write home about.

Ok? I was talking about 2014…

That depends. If you use Conjure Minor Elementals as-written with no nerfs (which personally I would not), then yeah, dual-wielding is incredibly OP. If you allow weapon swapping cheese (which personally I would), then dual wielding is very strong, about on par with greatsword. A little stronger at early levels and a little weaker at high levels, but overall comparable. If you don’t allow weapon swapping cheese, dual wielding is still good at early levels but falls behind greatsword in the mid and late game.

Even without CME it's still good. Fount of Moonlights also around.

Great weapon gets two attacks with potential cleave at 5th level. Dual Wield gets 4.

 

[Charlaquin]

Even without CME it's still good. Fount of Moonlights also around.

Good, yes, but like I said, falls behind greatsword without weapon swapping cheese (which IMO is a good reason to allow weapon swapping cheese).

Great weapon gets two attacks with potential cleave at 5th level. Dual Wield gets 4.

Yes, but without weapon swapping cheese, each of those 4 attacks is dealing about half the damage of a greatsword attack. With weapon swapping cheese, the damage is pretty comparable. But, the dual wielder needs to use one of their weapon masteries on Nick to get that many attacks, and is basically forced into Vex for the other, whereas the greatsword user gets Graze, which is low-key the best Mastery for single-target DPR. Strength mod damage on a miss isn’t as sexy as the various rider-on-hit masteries, is a huge boost to damage consistency, which matters a lot for single-target DPR.

 

[Zardnaar]

Good, yes, but like I said, falls behind greatsword without weapon swapping cheese (which IMO is a good reason to allow weapon swapping cheese).

Yes, but without weapon swapping cheese, each of those 4 attacks is dealing about half the damage of a greatsword attack. With weapon swapping cheese, the damage is pretty comparable. But, the dual wielder needs to use one of their weapon masteries on Nick to get that many attacks, and is basically forced into Vex for the other, whereas the greatsword user gets Graze, which is low-key the best Mastery for single-target DPR. Strength mod damage on a miss isn’t as sexy as the various rider-on-hit masteries, is a huge boost to damage consistency, which matters a lot for single-target DPR.

It's not the size if dice being rolled but the amount of riders added to it. Barbarian raging adds that damage per hit for example including dual wield feat. Monk probably skips dual wield feat.

Warlocks above average damage with its class features in 2014. It's also obvious, easy to achieve and good damage type.

Compares well to basic archery, sword and board etc so it's above average at least. If you build a "striker" though and you're dealing less damage might want to rethink your build.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Good, yes, but like I said, falls behind greatsword without weapon swapping cheese (which IMO is a good reason to allow weapon swapping cheese).

Yes, but without weapon swapping cheese, each of those 4 attacks is dealing about half the damage of a greatsword attack. With weapon swapping cheese, the damage is pretty comparable. But, the dual wielder needs to use one of their weapon masteries on Nick to get that many attacks, and is basically forced into Vex for the other, whereas the greatsword user gets Graze, which is low-key the best Mastery for single-target DPR. Strength mod damage on a miss isn’t as sexy as the various rider-on-hit masteries, is a huge boost to damage consistency, which matters a lot for single-target DPR.

The thing with graze is, that it is only great on paper, as it raises the floor damage. If you add advantage and buff spells and your hit bonuses increase due to magic weapons, and other people also whack on the same target, those 5 points of damage you did when you coud have hit if your first attack was made with a topple weapon, it does not look that great.

That does not mean it is a bad mastery. But not as great as it looks.

 

[Charlaquin]

The thing with graze is, that it is only great on paper, as it raises the floor damage. If you add advantage and buff spells and your hit bonuses increase due to magic weapons, and other people also whack on the same target, those 5 points of damage you did when you coud have hit if your first attack was made with a topple weapon, it does not look that great.

That does not mean it is a bad mastery. But not as great as it looks.

You say “good on paper, not as good in actual play,” I say “unsexy but effective.” Obviously a hit is better than a miss, so Graze feels bad because it relies on you missing to do anything. However, you will miss some of the time, and dealing Strength mod damage when you do is a boost to the consistency of your damage output, which when you analyze the numbers, makes a much bigger difference than our monkey brains intuitively expect it to. Of course, gameplay feel is important, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for favoring a Mastery that feels more impactful, even if the raw numbers say Graze is “better.”

 

[Zardnaar]

You say “good on paper, not as good in actual play,” I say “unsexy but effective.” Obviously a hit is better than a miss, so Graze feels bad because it relies on you missing to do anything. However, you will miss some of the time, and dealing Strength mod damage when you do is a boost to the consistency of your damage output, which when you analyze the numbers, makes a much bigger difference than our monkey brains intuitively expect it to. Of course, gameplay feel is important, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for favoring a Mastery that feels more impactful, even if the raw numbers say Graze is “better.”

Graze is to hard to rate without playing with it for a bit. ACs are low and you tend to hit a lot. It's theoretical while say nick and vex are not. They're always good.

Some adventures for example the AC is around 5-12. MM average is 14.5 apparently.

So Graze effectiveness is variable by play style and party composition. Dual wielding is always good (assuming you're in melee Graze has same problem though).
BTW I agree with your Warlock EB spam. Good damage 2014 nothing special now.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You say “good on paper, not as good in actual play,” I say “unsexy but effective.” Obviously a hit is better than a miss, so Graze feels bad because it relies on you missing to do anything. However, you will miss some of the time, and dealing Strength mod damage when you do is a boost to the consistency of your damage output, which when you analyze the numbers, makes a much bigger difference than our monkey brains intuitively expect it to. Of course, gameplay feel is important, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for favoring a Mastery that feels more impactful, even if the raw numbers say Graze is “better.”

As I said, it is not bad and it adds up. And I said it raises the floor (boost to consostency). Especially if you face enemies that rely mlre on debuffing and not being than lots of HP.

But treantmonk does not account for party buffs or magic weapons or outside advantage. And the more buffs and magic weapons you use, the more advantage you have, the less you miss.

So if you have a bard in a team and someone uses bless, you might want a different mastery.

Has nothing to do with monky brain. It is basic math... ok, as treantmonk shows it can get quite complicated...
... but he bases his math on certain assumptions... which often don't hold up in actual play... as he is very open about.

So what I just wanted to say is: graze is not necessarily the best mastery if you act as a team. It might still be.

 

[Charlaquin]

As I said, it is not bad and it adds up. And I said it raises the floor (boost to consostency). Especially if you face enemies that rely mlre on debuffing and not being than lots of HP.

But treantmonk does not account for party buffs or magic weapons or outside advantage. And the more buffs and magic weapons you use, the more advantage you have, the less you miss.

So if you have a bard in a team and someone uses bless, you might want a different mastery.

Has nothing to do with monky brain. It is basic math... ok, as treantmonk shows it can get quite complicated...
... but he bases his math on certain assumptions... which often don't hold up in actual play... as he is very open about.

So what I just wanted to say is: graze is not necessarily the best mastery if you act as a team. It might still be.

I dont know what Treantmonk’s math says. My math says Graze is very good. It does get worse if you hit more often, but it takes hitting very consistently before Vex or Topple overtake Graze for single-target DPR.

 

[ECMO3]

The ranger has the best combination of ranged DOR and melee DOR


The Paladin has a terrible ranged attack.
The Barbarian has a terrible ranged attack
The Monk loses tons of damage at range.
The Rogue can only go melee or ranged until they pick up Sharpshooter at high levels
The Fighter is even more feat intensive for both melee and ranged.

The Ranger can have an okay melee attack while optimized strong for ranged.
The Ranged can have a good ranged attack while optimized good for melee.

My Paladin is better at long Range than the Ranger I am playing. The Ranger is better inside throwing range and the Paladin is better in melee as long as I have spell slots.