D&D (2024) How do I disarm traps? Does Thieves' Tools do anything?

[pukunui]

So sure, I can figure it out. I can also refer to the old books. Hell, if need to be I can write my own game from scratch!
But not everyone is a long time veteran and to some people this book will be their first exposure to RPGs. And my controversial opinion is that if people pay money for RPG books, those books should actually come with the rules for playing the game!

Yes, this. I've been playing and DM games since the 90s. I can figure this stuff out for myself. But what about the new players they are targeting with this revised edition? It seems to me like they've needlessly muddied some aspects of the game that were actually clearer in the 2014 version (which new players aren't necessarily going to know about or have access to).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So sure, I can figure it out. I can also refer to the old books. Hell, if need to be I can write my own game from scratch!
But not everyone is a long time veteran and to some people this book will be their first exposure to RPGs. And my controversial opinion is that if people pay money for RPG books, those books should actually come with the rules for playing the game!

No argument from me.

But in this thread, the suggestion seemed to be that it's impossible to use the skill to pick pockets as is.

I think even most newbies will go "hey, there's Perception and there's Sleight of Hand and the game system mentions contested rolls ..."

I suspect the next printing will make all of this explicit. Stuff has slipped through, as we've had whole threads detailing, and WotC is going to want to plug those ASAP.

 

[ezo]

In the Tools section, the PHB says that you can disarm a trap using Thieves' Tools with a DC 15 Dexterity check.

Correct. Anyone with proficiency in Thieves' Tools can do this.

Contradicting (?) itself, the PHB also says that a Thief Rogue can, as a bonus action, disarm a trap with a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves' Tools. *

This is not a contradiction, althought I understand the confusion.

A Rogue (Thief) can, as a bonus action, use thieves' tools to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to disarm a trap.

A couple things to note:
1) If the Rogue (Thief) does not have proficiency in Sleight of Hand, and atttempt to disarm a trap using this bonus action feature, they DO NOT add their proficiency bonus.
2) They must have Thieves' Tools to attempt to disarm the trap.

There is no advantage granted here. The fact is the Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) replaces the Dexterity (Thieves' tools) check which would be normally made BECAUSE it is being done as a bonus action. Hence the feature name: Fast Hands.

You never grant advantage for doubling-down on a skill and tool unless they are directly related. Sleight of Hands normally is only used for picking pockets, concealing an object, and legerdemain. This is a special case use that replaces the proficiency bonus normally granted by Thieves' tools, in which all rogues are proficient.

Contradicting (?) the PHB, the DMG simply does not mention Thieves' Tools in the Traps section at all. Neither as a general rule (for comparison, the 2014 DMG said you might call for "a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage"), nor in any of the sample traps. One sample trap can be disarmed with a DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, no tools mentioned. And all the rest are handled narratively once detected, e.g. cut the trip wire (explicitly no ability check required), deface the glyph, or wedge a spike under the pressure plate.

So what's the RAW here? What's the RAI, even?

Whether or not Thieves' tools are needed would depend very much on the nature of the trap:

Referencing the Examples Traps in the DMG I get the problem. The trap game system is poorly designed (big shock!). Once you know of the trap, apparently iron spikes handle 80% of the problems LOL!

As to the Poisoned Needle. Again, any PC can attempt THIS trap via Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), such as a Bard which would likely have Sleight of Hand proficiency.

A Rogue, however, can use Dexterity (Thieves' tools) to disarm the same trap, or any of the other traps if something like the iron spikes isn't available as a simple counter-measure.

Where WotC's design falls apart is there is NO check of any sort required in employing the iron spike solution in the DMG. On the other side, a rogue attempting a Dexeterity (Thieves' tools) would risk possibly setting off the trap if they failed the DC 15 (if such a thing is still possibly in 2024...).

Are we supposed to handle disarming traps narratively? If yes, WHY does it say that you can roll Thieves' Tools to disarm traps? Are we supposed to roll Thieves' Tools? Then WHY doesn't it mention them in the DMG at all? Are we supposed to do both, or either, or DM's choice? Then WHY doesn't it specify that?

It is always DM's choice and it doesn't specify anything because WotC doesn't really carry out on the "good" design concepts in 5E. Even at the end of traps the tell you that you can build your own and offer a table, but show an actual example of this process??? OH, NO!!!

Consider how often in the example traps iron spikes can disarm them once the trigger mechanism is detected, and no checks are required. Then why even have checks for Rogues to disarm traps if 80+% don't even need Thieves' tools but just iron spikes?

* Important note: the entire Tools section in the PHB lists abilities, not skills, but elsewhere skills ARE specified. E.g. it says that picking locks is a Dexterity check using Thieves' Tools, but if you go to "Lock" in the glossary, it says it's a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check with Thieves' Tools. Musical Instruments is listed as a Charisma check, but I mean, it's a Performance check. So it's possible they meant that using Thieves' Tools is always a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, and just neglected to write it down anywhere.

Tools should be disassociated from skills. Sleight of Hand proficiency does not enable you to pick a lock, proficiency in the tools needed to pick the lock is what lets you add proficiency. Performance is not for playing an instrument, but should be for dancing, etc. where there is not an applicable tool proficiency (e.g. instrument).

Don't say "if you have both you get advantage". You need one or the other, not both. Both is bad design IMO.

For example, there is no herbalism skill, there is an herbalism kit. Proficiency in Nature shouldn't make you better at knowning how to use something (the herblism kit) you already know how to use.

(sigh)

I feel your pain. It is why 2024 is not the new year for a new edition of D&D for me. It's a pity, really, as the 50th anniversary, and I would love to corner the WotC designers in a room and make them answer for these poor design choices.

 

[pukunui]

It's a pity, really, as the 50th anniversary, and I would love to corner the WotC designers in a room and make them answer for these poor design choices.

Same!

 

[ezo]

Same!

You know, I was going to say a locked room... but that would just be pointless.

 

[sevenbastard]

This is why my thief's stick to stealth builds. Let me go ahead a crack open those rules to see how they work.........

 

[Clint_L]

I think the main problem is expecting a hard and fast rule for trap encounters. You could have such a rule, but not without limiting the design space available to the DM.

Some traps are solved by perception. Example: concealed trap (I would also allow investigation, if the party was actively searching). Here there is nothing to disarm - you either spot it and avoid it, or not.

Other traps might involve investigation to spot, and then arcana to disarm. Example: an exploding glyph on a tome.

Others might be so simple to avoid or disarm that spotting them is the same as disarming them. Example: simple pressure plate with a spike.

Others might need to be disarmed technically, and would require tools. Example: a trigger mechanism in a bomb.

Take the opening sequence of Raiders of the Lost Arc. First, Indy makes an investigation check and discovers the pressure plates. He is then able to avoid them. Another investigation check exposes the pressure plate under the idol, and he tries to disarm it, but fails his sleight of hand check. Oops! Now there's a ticking clock, and he makes (I assume) a pair of dexterity checks: one to avoid the poisoned needles, one to beat the rapidly closing door (plus save his hat!), and then an athletics check to jump the pit.

I do think the DMG could give more examples of traps, as they are integral and fun part of the game. But I also think that, just like combat encounters, they are as much art as science, and need to allow for DM ingenuity. So a hard and fast rule is not desirable.

 

[GMMichael]

To clarify, when you say "I'm going with this", you mean "I'm making this up", right? It's not your interpretation of the rules in the books, it's your own rule. Because (not that I would ever disapprove of pro-Rogue bias - points at username) the flat DC 15 is decidedly not Rogue-specific normally. It's in the Tools section in the PHB, it's a rule for Thieves' Tools in general. Anyone with 25 gp can buy thieves' tools, and use them, and roll vs DC 15.

Less "I'm making this up" and more "WotC screwed up their rules, so I'll make an educated guess." Yeah, anyone with 25 gold can buy Thieves' Tools (provided you don't draw the watch's attention to the fence who is selling them), but not everyone gets proficiency with TT, so we're still talking about the Rogues here, mostly. Having the tool does not confer proficiency with said tools, and proficiency with a (proficiency-) tool is required to accomplish something with the tool.

I care. Cool skill systems make me happy. I think D&D becomes better with a cool skill system, and worse without one. YMMV.

D&D becomes better with a lot of things.

Any time a tool and skill both use proficiency for the action it grants advantage.

This might be the rule, but it's a bad one. It puts pressure on the skills, tools, attack bonuses, and saving throws to not overlap, unless some rolls become too easy, or some players abuse the sloppy design.

For example, I'll be taking Advantage every time I have to Perceive for guards while I'm lockpicking (tool prof), every time I run somewhere (athletics, acrobatics and Con save), or just attack (athletics and attack rolls), or do anything with my bard (instrument proficiency and well, all bard skills).

I think you don't have to have proficiency in Thieves' Tools to use them if you have proficiency in Sleight of Hand. Either works. But you should still use Thieves' Tools either way.

The two should not overlap, or the Rogue gets Expertise for free in both proficiencies.

Wow...I assume you are being facetious, because this is an obviously terrible idea.

Slightly . . .

By tenth level, It is impossible for a rogue to fail a DC 15 thieve's tools check. So...why even bother with having traps that involve them? As a DM, it's a waste of time in the story if the only result is "you succeed." Given that I put time and effort into traps that are fun puzzles and challenges for players to solve, and risk is an inherent and fun part of the game, I adjust the challenge of DC according to the ability of the party.

The DC 15 check is for 1) a trap that's been located, and 2) someone with TT proficiency. The DC 15 is also a reward (assuming WotC wasn't too lazy to write in "the DM determines a reasonable DC") to Rogues for taking the class if anyone not proficient with TTs has to worry about a variable DC.

There's always risk involved: if you don't successfully find a trap, you might just trigger it. But by tenth level, a rogue shouldn't be saying, "stand back, team. I never know what will happen when I try to disarm one of these non-magical traps."

Otherwise, we might as well just keep pitting them against kobolds all the way to 20th level.

Well, one reason they basically removed reduced armor class, and wrote up some monster templates, is that yes, kobolds should be dangerous all the way up to 20th level.

 

[Ashrym]

This might be the rule, but it's a bad one. It puts pressure on the skills, tools, attack bonuses, and saving throws to not overlap, unless some rolls become too easy, or some players abuse the sloppy design.

For example, I'll be taking Advantage every time I have to Perceive for guards while I'm lockpicking (tool prof), every time I run somewhere (athletics, acrobatics and Con save), or just attack (athletics and attack rolls), or do anything with my bard (instrument proficiency and well, all bard skills).

The proficiency has to be for the same check. Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand grant that advantage because they're both used to open the lock. Other examples would be proficiency with Smith's Tools being used to pry open a door while also being proficient in Athletics for advantage on the DC 20 check, or using a Musical Instrument in a Performance, or even Cooking Utensils and Survival to detect and prepare unspoiled food.

The lockpicking and perception example are two unrelated checks.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think the main problem is expecting a hard and fast rule for trap encounters

I think a big source of this problem is video game adaptations. Perception check = glowing red square on the floor. Skill check = make red square disappear. What the trap does, how it works, and why it is there is abstracted away. The main reason it’s there is to create a reason for having a rogue in the party.