When Do the 5E “Ride or Die” Folks Become Grogs Like The Rest of Us in “D&D Older Editions” And When Do We Get D&D 5E Flair for Posts?

[PHATsakk43]

You started this post with the position that the person you responded to had the wrong idea about species being less important and distinctive mechanically, then proceeded to provide many examples of species being less important and distinctive mechanically.

Fair point.

I guess my point was that the species attributes, while not necessarily game breaking—which was implied in the older versions of the game—still were a major factor in how the character was developed and played.

Moving a lot of this stuff from something inherent to a species to a more nebulous “background” changes the flavor more than anything. Or that’s my take at least.

Ultimately, all the meat and potatoes are still in the dish, we’re just getting them served differently. Mashed potatoes and roast beef and a ribeye with a baked potato are functionally the same, but they are very different in the plate and the palate.

 

[Mannahnin]

While the other species abilities are still going to be big factor in a lot of people's build decisions, I think moving the ability score increases to backgrounds is a step in the right direction.

IMO one of the virtues of the B/X race as class system as opposed to AD&D and its descendents is the lack of ability score bonuses in the race classes, which means races aren't a tool for min/maxing. Selecting them is instead a matter of what archetype you want to play.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I do not agree with you, unless you only measure their mechanical heft through the lens of combat.

Mechanical heft in D&D is seen mostly through the lens of combat. That's still the bulk of the rules in the game.

Of course, there are other kinds of heft, but I believe this is the page we were discussing.

 

[PHATsakk43]

While the other species abilities are still going to be big factor in a lot of people's build decisions, I think moving the ability score increases to backgrounds is a step in the right direction.

IMO one of the virtues of the B/X race as class system as opposed to AD&D and its descendents is the lack of ability score bonuses in the race classes, which means races aren't a tool for min/maxing. Selecting them is instead a matter of what archetype you want to play.

B/X still had ability scores and demihumans linked, just instead of the +/- it simply required minimum ability scores.

So, your dwarf didn’t get a +1 CON & -1 CHA, the dwarf just had to have a minimum in CON to qualify.

2E probably took this to the extreme, with effectively having “slot limits” on race selection and minimums in class. Although, I don’t remember the racial ability tables getting referenced very frequently during builds.

 

[Micah Sweet]

While the other species abilities are still going to be big factor in a lot of people's build decisions, I think moving the ability score increases to backgrounds is a step in the right direction.

IMO one of the virtues of the B/X race as class system as opposed to AD&D and its descendents is the lack of ability score bonuses in the race classes, which means races aren't a tool for min/maxing. Selecting them is instead a matter of what archetype you want to play.

I agree. But I'm not generally a fan of ASIs in any case.

 

[PHATsakk43]

I agree. But I'm not generally a fan of ASIs in any case.

I still think the “roll under” mechanic was the superior way to go with skills.

DCs simply scale poorly and create way too many impossible situations or zero effort rolls.

Not everything should scale with XP.

Aasimar can sprout wings for a minute at level 3, I’m pretty sure people will be making builds around that feature alone that will be useful at high levels.

Again, after 3rd level or so, the ability to fly occasionally shouldn’t be something that limits a party given the amount of stuff out there in the game that can provide that effect.

With the ability scores, getting a career +5% to a lot of rolls will actually make a difference. It may not be as flashy or as remembered when you hit your DC solely because of summed up bonuses, but it’s very important for the game outcome.

 

[Mannahnin]

B/X still had ability scores and demihumans linked, just instead of the +/- it simply required minimum ability scores.

So, your dwarf didn’t get a +1 CON & -1 CHA, the dwarf just had to have a minimum in CON to qualify.

Yes, I know. It gated them behind minimum requirements, which is kind of the opposite of how they're a tool for min-maxing in other editions. I didn't think I needed to bother to mention this.

2E probably took this to the extreme, with effectively having “slot limits” on race selection and minimums in class. Although, I don’t remember the racial ability tables getting referenced very frequently during builds.

What? I don't follow.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Mechanical heft in D&D is seen mostly through the lens of combat. That's still the bulk of the rules in the game.

This is true but there is no need for the species to support this pillar, nor for that matter should the background system. The classes and subclass can do it on their own.

If I had my way there would be no A.S.I's in the game at all. In my opinion they exist because when 5e was being created one essential marketing task for the game was to win back the audience that stayed with 3.x or went to Pathfinder.

Of course, there are other kinds of heft, but I believe this is the page we were discussing.

I believe that species and background is one area that should support rp and areas of the game not directly supporting combat.
It is one area where Level Up does a much better job than 5e.

 

[Hatmatter]

You started this post with the position that the person you responded to had the wrong idea about species being less important and distinctive mechanically, then proceeded to provide many examples of species being less important and distinctive mechanically.

???

To me, it is as if I am reading a different language where some words are familiar, but I simply can't understand what you are writing, Micah. I would respond, but I have nothing to say, which is why I am not responding to Phat. If Phat thinks that

I suppose that regardless of if it’s “race as class” or “race and class” going to “race as cosmetic as you’re character’s name and gender” is still completely different from anything in the past 50 years of the game.

...then I cannot continue this conversation. Take care and happy role-playing and enjoy your time in the forums. Phat, I hope you can find a group up there in Ontario.

Cheers!

 

[Corinnguard]

I believe that species and background is one area that should support rp and areas of the game not directly supporting combat.
It is one area where Level Up does a much better job than 5e.

Culture and Background in Level Up were designed with social interaction in mind while Destiny, in a way, is something that supports exploration. It's what motivated your character to leave their family and their hometown behind and explore a much wider world.

As for character classes in Level Up, they were built around all three pillars.