D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

[Vaalingrade]

I love that you think I hate YA given the amount of YA I read!

You don't have to hate something to use it as a rhetorical hammer.

especially when it's perfectly possible (and demonstrated) to attack a whole while making exceptions.

 

[Maxperson]

And that is one of the things I wonder about, if GRRM ever finishes Winds of Winter. The state of fantasy has changed dramatically since the last time he released a book; how will people receive it? A lot of the tropes haven't aged well.

The rest of his books in the series remain very popular. I wouldn't worry if the new one(which won't ever happen) is in the same tone as the others.

 

[TiQuinn]

There's no such thing as a "5E system", though, is there? There's just a wide variety of dissimilar products which call themselves "5E compatible" or the like, where the actual degree of compatibility varies wildly.

Eh, debatable. I think with the SRD and enough 5e compatible games that do not include every component of 5e D&D, there has to be a basic underlying 5e system.

For instance, 5e Masque of the Red Death is 5e compatible, presents no race options other than human, completely different classes, completely different magic, and level caps at 10th level, and looks like it would work fine for that Ravenloftesque Victorian horror genre. There's no reason someone couldn't create something for a sci-fi horror game using classes like say Mechanic, Medic, Soldier, Pilot, Stowaway, limit them to maybe only 5 levels, and you've created something much smaller, still useful for telling horror stories but not on the same heroic scale as D&D.

 

[Maxperson]

There is in the community and they use the Appendix N as part of it. Either to hold up certain works as necessary and part of the One True D&D or as proof that D&D has fallen off due to the influence of 'lesser' works.

Okay, but that's not any gatekeeping in appendix n. None. Some individuals want to gatekeep, but they will do so regardless. The appendix n and even the inspirational reading of Gygax in 1e, don't have any One True Wayism in them. None. One True Wayism in the actual appendix is required for gatekeeping to exist there.

As usual, people conflate a thing being X as opposed to it encouraging or being used for X.

It doesn't encourage it, either. The reality is that it encourages the opposite of gatekeeping, suggesting that people read other things that aren't on the list and get inspiration from those things, too. At least Gygax's did.

 

[Scribe]

My son played a lot of Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing, in his oh, 8-14 range.

Then it was Doom, Dark Souls, and eventually Elden Ring, while he was reading Berzerk and Junji Ito and listening to Grunge...

 

[Vaalingrade]

It doesn't encourage it, either. The reality is that it encourages the opposite of gatekeeping, suggesting that people read other things that aren't on the list and get inspiration from those things, too. At least Gygax's did.

~gestures broadly to existing thread~

Or it becomes a weapon to be wielded like a lot of 'traditional' junk from old D&D that's survived purely by dint of tradition and a terrible fandom.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Giving a name to something Pathfinder did first and better?

Fair point but yeah stealing effectively can make it so history relates that you did it. And speaking of World of Warcraft, an awful lot of things most people think WoW invented or revolutionized in MMORPGs actually came from games from 2001-2003 and WoW just nicked 'em (like instanced dungeons).

You don't have to hate something to use it as a rhetorical hammer.

especially when it's perfectly possible (and demonstrated) to attack a whole while making exceptions.

Ok but am I doing that? If I am, like, please tell me how so I can stop!

I'm not attacking YA as a whole, or using YA as an insult. I'm pointing out YA fantasy as an area where there's heavy gatekeeping, very intentional and even highly organised gatekeeping at that! That people openly discuss! And that the combined discussion of YA fantasy and Sanderson's Cosmere has really squeezed out a lot of discussion of any fantasy that isn't those in a lot of online spaces in the last five years.

As usual, people conflate a thing being X as opposed to it encouraging or being used for X.

I don't think Appendix N-type stuff encourages gatekeeping in any meaningful way.

Can such lists be used for gatekeeping? Sure, but that's not a reason not to have them where they offer insight or useful vibe suggestions. Anything can be appropriated and misused.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

~gestures broadly to existing thread~

Or it becomes a weapon to be wielded like a lot of 'traditional' junk from old D&D that's survived purely by dint of tradition and a terrible fandom.

You seem to assuming an Appendix N-type deal for 5E 2024 would merely be a replica of an earlier one. I think that's unlikely. More likely it would be hugely different and in fact the arguments would be between fans of the old one and new one!

 

[Baron Opal II]

And even from the defenders of appendix, I have not read a single comment in this thread "yeah, I took inspiration from Appendix N. I had no idea for my own, read some stuff and it inspired my campaign". Everyone is like "its interesting, I got some nice books out of it - never used it in my campaign though".

Oh, my bad.

Yes, I took inspiration from Appendix N. Specifically from the works of AE Merrit, Vance, and Zelazny. While H. Beam Piper and William Hope Hodgson aren't on the list, I only discovered them through perusing the listed authors. The Night Land* is a foundational story for my campaign world. My divinities are patterned off of the World of Five Gods stories by Lois McMaster Bujold (Curse of Chalion, &c.)

I appreciate articulating how it helped personally.

You bet!

I agree it would be more challenging today. ... it occurred to me, do any of those books have the central hero be gay or trans? Some of them have woman as the hero of the story. ...

There are some stories from the 30s-50s that seem remarkably feminist to me. The main protagonist is male, but there is sometimes a female co-protagonist, sometimes but not necessarily a love interest, who is firing their .38 into the monster just as courageously as their male counter part. If they need to be rescued it's not because they're Fay Wray held by the beast, but because they're a partner in the investigation and got to the critter a bit before the main protagonist. But, eh, I don't think the same way others do. I can be wrong.

Now, gay or trans... I would like to say that I've read some weird fiction from the 1920s where the protagonist is a "confirmed bachelor" (i.e. gay), but it's not gone into. The only trans I can think of are those people who cross-dress as a lifestyle because of a shamanic background. They're out there, but they're hen's teeth. I would say it would be trivial to find a more modern tale that addressed that need.

Should we have an Appendix N? Maybe. I think it should be a full page list, sub-divided into eras or themes. It would likely encourage an old fart like me to pick up some newer authors as I descend into my retirement and dotage. I think it can connect different generations of gamers, seeing what others have found enjoyment and inspiration from.

But, if not, that's okay too.

* Which a very interesting but very poorly told story, and a "product of its time". If you're interested find the re-write by James Stoddard. Much better!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There's no reason someone couldn't create something for a sci-fi horror game using classes like say Mechanic, Medic, Soldier, Pilot, Stowaway, limit them to maybe only 5 levels, and you've created something much smaller, still useful for telling horror stories but not on the same heroic scale as D&D.

You'd also need to do stuff like eliminate linearly scaling HP (or make it so you had like 30 HP at L1 and gained like 1d4 per level), and make a lot of other changes (particularly to combat - massively increasing damage done relative to HP by both sides, for example), you'd probably want to ditch D&D's attributes as it'd be nigh-impossible make them all relevant to such a scenario (and set of classes), and eventually you're left with a system where the only real similarity it has to D&D is you roll a d20 to determine stuff! 5E compatible it ain't!