Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[GMMichael]

Have you played Elden Ring, by chance?

I've watched some Elden Ring. I don't remember a lot of vision-problems. I seem to remember Witcher 3 and Dragon's Dogma using darkness to better effect.

 

[Maxperson]

Could be. But it's interesting, since the two-with-Disadvantage are effectively rolling four rolls and not taking the lowest. The single roller takes the lowest and the highest, since they're the same roll.

The average will be higher I think for the single roll, since it's going to be on the best perception PC. Four rolls and take the two lowest will still be lower overall, since one of those sets of rolls will be on the PC with lower perception, and the PC with the highest perception is taking a hit most times by taking the lowest of two rolls.

Also, many things are passive perception, which with disadvantage takes a flat -5. So a 3rd level PC with an 18 wisdom and +2 proficiency is at a passive of 11 instead of 16, which means that most things that would be spotted will now be missed.

 

[Shardstone]

The thing is, darkness should be the name of the game in dungeon-crawling. The only darker thing should be cave-crawling, but who goes cave-crawling? Anyway, those are all good vision-obstructing examples, but they can, and should, happen anywhere. Above ground. Giving everyone darkvision just raises all dungeons above ground, during daylight. Or it makes them into Skyrim dungeons, where there is darkness, but it's still pretty bright. I modded that away a long time ago.


Hmm... maybe I should add super narrow vision to the poll. It might also ruin dungeon crawling...


Could be. But it's interesting, since the two-with-Disadvantage are effectively rolling four rolls and not taking the lowest. The single roller takes the lowest and the highest, since they're the same roll.

I think we have different schema for dungeon-crawling. I see cave-crawling as a variation within the same dungeon genre. For example, while Veins of the Earth presents a fabulous bespoke system for cave-crawling, that same system works just as good for dungeon crawling. But if you consider those two things seperate, I imagine that you probably have a very firm idea of what a dungeon is, and what gameplay in a dungeon is like.

That's normal and fine, but to me, who has a different schema of dungeon-crawling, darkvision isn't a big deal. In Elden Ring, most dungeons are suitably lit with torches of ghostflame -- this pale blue-white fire that occurs when your burn the dead in the setting. Enemies are camoflauged throughout the environment, essentially different types of gargoyles and undead. There are a lot of jumpscares because as you're playing, you don't know what's around the corner, you can't see clearly into rooms due to the architecture, and enemies are blended into the environment. So, you never quite know what's going on in a room until you enter it or unless you are clever and cautious in investigating it. You also can't fast-travel out of dungeons nor rest, so you have to manage your resources -- arrows, pots, HP + mana, etc -- as you scale deep into these eerie dungeons where death and danger lurk around every corner.

But there isn't a lot of darkness. There's darkness in chasms, or beneath elevators, but that darkness is deep space that you'll die if you go into and that darkvision wouldn't be able to fully penetrate anyhow. But the hallways, the rooms, there is ghostflame everywhere, and it makes the whole environment feel so creepy. Like you've entered a world where Death is king, and you need to get out.

The key take away here is that you can achieve the same effect as darkness by using architecture and ruin as well as eerie setting elements (making things feel wrong, like ghostflame vs normal flame). But if your schema of a dungeon is a dark, dank place, you aren't WRONG about darkvision ruining dungeon-crawling -- because for the dungeons you create and run, it does. But in my dungeons, because of my tastes and schemas, it doesn't.

 

[Argyle King]

You were made proficient with perception. It did not make your vision better.

Specialization in perception. Your vision, though, stayed the same. Unless you had laser surgery or were given glasses/contacts with PCs don't get.

The context of this discussion is darkvision and the disadvantage associated with visual perception checks, so no other senses matter for the purposes of this discussion.

And aided. What you describe above is training, not aid by some guy standing next to you. That guy next to you who has no idea where, when or what is in the darkness himself, can't help you see it.

But they do get disadvantage to visual perception checks, which is a massive penalty in a game like D&D.

Imagine your darkvision party walks into a room and on the desk is some stuff. Mixed into that stuff is a ring. Nobody knows it is there. How is the guy next to you going to aid you in seeing that ring sitting there? He can't and nothing you describe above changes that. You both get individual rolls with disadvantage to see the ring.

Something included in all of the examples above is the fact that having other people around made it easier.

In the hunting example, both myself and my dad were aiding each other in the same task in the same area of observation. That differed from when he would send me on my own to flush something out.

Likewise, in the military example, I was typically paired up with at least one other person. A better example may be having a spotter when doing long range marksmanship.

Regardless, as said, Perception (in D&D) involves more than just sight. The person doing Help may smell or hear something -and communicate that to the person doing the check.

 

[Argyle King]

I'm not entirely sure what the question is here- can one character help another be lookout? Search for things in a room? Yeah, they'll get advantage. But if one is blind and one can see, if they're solely relying on sight then there isn't going to be assistance given.

My position is that, with Darkvision, neither is blind.

•Dim Light gives disadvantage.
•Help gives advantage
•disadvantage and advantage cancel out

(While not specified in the rules, I may be inclined to say that the Perception-Helper gets Disadvantage on initiative since they were focused on helping the primary Perception-person being able to perceive and react to a threat. That's not how I feel it plays out in an actual situation, but I think that ruling makes sense in the context of D&D's more abstract perception rules.)

I've seen a few people claim that Help is a combat-specific action. However, I don't see that stated anywhere in the description of actions on page 15 of the (2024) PHB. I also do not see that stated anywhere in the expanded description of Help found in the rules glossary of the same (2024) PHB.

 

[Maxperson]

Something included in all of the examples above is the fact that having other people around made it easier.

D&D doesn't do that, though. You can stand 18 guys in a circle all looking at one sliver of area and they will still be rolling individual perception checks.

In the hunting example, both myself and my dad were aiding each other in the same task in the same area of observation. That differed from when he would send me on my own to flush something out.

And you both were making individual perception checks. Two people doubling your chances of success by each rolling 1d20+perception. You didn't get better(advantage) and he didn't get no roll(because he was helping you roll).

Likewise, in the military example, I was typically paired up with at least one other person. A better example may be having a spotter when doing long range marksmanship.

But again, you aren't both blind to what you are looking for. The spotter's job is to do calculations and help the marksman hit the target that they can see.

I've already acknowledged that if you go completely outside the context of this discussion about darkvision and assume that one person has already seen the object, that person can aid the other person in seeing it as well.

Regardless, as said, Perception (in D&D) involves more than just sight. The person doing Help may smell or hear something -and communicate that to the person doing the check.

And regardless of this argument, none of that matter in the context of this discussion. This discussion is about the DISADVANTAGE to VISUAL perception checks darkness causes to those who use darkvision.

 

[Argyle King]

D&D doesn't do that, though. You can stand 18 guys in a circle all looking at one sliver of area and they will still be rolling individual perception checks.

And you both were making individual perception checks. Two people doubling your chances of success by each rolling 1d20+perception. You didn't get better(advantage) and he didn't get no roll(because he was helping you roll).

But again, you aren't both blind to what you are looking for. The spotter's job is to do calculations and help the marksman hit the target that they can see.

I've already acknowledged that if you go completely outside the context of this discussion about darkvision and assume that one person has already seen the object, that person can aid the other person in seeing it as well.

And regardless of this argument, none of that matter in the context of this discussion. This discussion is about the DISADVANTAGE to VISUAL perception checks darkness causes to those who use darkvision.

People with Darkvision are not blind.

I would agree that individual perception checks occur if looking at different areas or looking for different things.

If two people are specifically aiding each other, that is different.

If we're talking specifically D&D (and we are,) the Help action can be taken to aid another character. Help is not defined as only in combat in the version of the PHB I have, and I don't remember it as being combat only in the older 5e PHB (but maybe it was). The 2024 PHB rules glossary defines what Help does both in and out of combat.

I posit that the other senses are relevant here because those other details can be information that the Helper communicates to the Perceiver that causes them to look more discerningly. If the Perceiver were blind or absent an ability to see, I would agree that they could not be helped. However, as Darkvision would make seeing something possible, the effort can benefit from Help -with the combination of information from the Perceiver using their eyes and the Helper providing advantageous information.

*Edited to fix the results of overzealous autocorrect.

*Edit 2: Further thoughts - using extra senses in tandem with Darkvision for a better overall Perception is more relevant after the 2024 PHB because Dwarves (who have Darkvision) now also have the ability to use Tremorsense.

 

[Maxperson]

People with Darkvision are not blind.

They are blind to everything until they see it, which they do with disadvantage.

I would agree that individual perception checks occur if looking at different areas or looking for different things.

If two people are specifically aiding each other, that is different.

They aren't, though. If you and I stand side by side looking at the same area of forest for game to hunt, you might see the rabbit and I might not, because we are both rolling separately. I did not help you see the rabbit in the slightest. My looking at that area of forest didn't help you even one iota.

It's not possible for me to aid you in your vision to see something neither of us have seen. It doesn't matter if we are close or far, looking at the same place or different places, looking for the same thing or different things. We each use our own eyes and nothing more to see with.

Now, if you see the rabbit and I don't, you can help me see it by saying something like, "It's two trees left of the rock down by the roots." to help me focus in on it. That's not what is happening with perception checks in the dark with darkvision, though. Nobody has seen anything yet and everyone is making their individual rolls, since it's not possible to help another person just. generally see better.

If we're talking specifically D&D (and we are,) the Help action can be taken to aid another character. Help is not defined as only in combat in the version of the PHB I have, and I don't remember it as being combat only in the older 5e PHB (but maybe it was). The 2024 PHB rules glossary defines what Help does both in and out of combat.

The rule is that it needs to be doable. If all you have is, "You can do it! You can see the bestest!" you aren't going to be giving them advantage.

I posit that the other senses are relevant here because those other details can be information that the Helper communicates to the Perceiver that causes them to look more discerningly. If the Perceiver were blind or absent an ability to see, I would agree that they could not be helped. However, as Darkvision would make seeing something possible, the effort can benefit from Help -with the combination of information from the Perceiver using their eyes and the Helper providing advantageous information.

*Edited to fix the results of overzealous autocorrect.

You can posit that all you like, but it simply won't be true for visual only checks like I stated with the ring example upthread. There's nothing to hear. Nothing to smell. Nothing to touch when you are looking at the desk. And nothing to taste. Traps are the same. The overwhelming majority of the time, the other senses won't play into it. You rely on vision to find traps.

 

[Argyle King]

They are blind to everything until they see it, which they do with disadvantage.

Everyone would be blind to something until they see it. You don't see something until you do. That you haven't done something until you have is, I think, true about everything.

i agree that they see with disadvantage. The advantage granted by Help cancels that out.

I think it would be reasonable for a DM to rule that individual perception checks are the norm for their games due to D&D not having facing, so there's not necessarily a way to specify that two characters are focusing on the same area.

However, I disagree that the rules define being able to see in dim light as impossible. The rules define it as more difficult via Disadvantage.
More difficult is not equivalent to impossible.

 

[Maxperson]

Everyone would be blind to something until they see it. You don't see something until you do. That you haven't done something until you have is, I think, true about everything.

i agree that they see with disadvantage. The advantage granted by Help cancels that out.

There...........is.............no..............help. They can only see separately unless one of them has already spotted the item. There is no possible way to help someone see the unknown by just standing there and looking for it yourself. There is no possible way to help someone see the unknown through rah rah verbal support. There is no possible way to help someone see better by moving their head around or however else you want to try physically.

Nothing you have described in a post represents helping someone see the unknown while the other person also has not seen it.

I think it would be reasonable for a DM to rule that individual perception checks are the norm for their games due to D&D not having facing, so there's not necessarily a way to specify that two characters are focusing on the same area.

It wouldn't matter if they did face the same area. I already showed how if you and I are looking for the same thing(game to hunt) in the same area, you can't help me see the rabbit unless you have already seen it. Until one of us spots the game, we are both looking individually at that area. You standing next to me and looking at the same area doesn't make my vision better or make me more likely to see the rabbit.

However, I disagree that the rules define being able to see in dim light as impossible. The rules define it as more difficult via Disadvantage.
More difficult is not equivalent to impossible.

Er, I've never said that. At all. I have been arguing every step of the way that the whole party would have disadvantage on their vision checks to see in darkness with darkvision, because of the dim lighting. I've said that it's impossible to help someone see better if you haven't seen the thing yourself, but that's not the same as saying that seeing the thing is impossible.