D&D 5E (2024) Bladesinger, is it Green, Yellow, or Red?

[Horwath]

Green, but since you no longer can use light armor. AC bonus should be permanent and not just when using Bladesong

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I put in yellow, because I don't like that many of the bonuses of Bladesong have an On/Off switch that you have to keep track of. I think a bunch of bonuses should be "always on", like +INT mod to AC and as replacements for weapon attacks bonuses and +INT to concentration. If there needs to be a "Use Bladesong" action it should be other things that last for 1 round, like maybe the speed bonus goes here (which would be greater than +10) and a bunch of Temp HP (like 5 * Int mod) gets added for 1 round.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I put in yellow, because I don't like that many of the bonuses of Bladesong have an On/Off switch that you have to keep track of. I think a bunch of bonuses should be "always on", like +INT mod to AC and as replacements for weapon attacks bonuses and +INT to concentration. If there needs to be a "Use Bladesong" action it should be other things that last for 1 round, like maybe the speed bonus goes here (which would be greater than +10) and a bunch of Temp HP (like 5 * Int mod) gets added for 1 round.

Think of it as a wizards version of a barbarians rage.

 

[ECMO3]

At the same time, I want a background-feat "Fighting Style" that grants at-will Mage Armor.

Magic Initiate as a background feat will do this for 8 hours.

 

[Yaarel]

Magic Initiate as a background feat will do this for 8 hours.

Yeah. That is part of why we know that at-will Mage Armor is balanced.

 

[ECMO3]

Did any character optimizers look at the bonus action attack at level 14? Is this a good feature at this level? Are there any interesting combos with this?

As printed in the UA this is EXTREMELY good. It means the new Bladesinger can make up t 4 attacks a round if they get nick through a multiclass or 12th level feat. That is the same number of attacks as a fighter is getting with nick or PAM at this level and the Bladesinger is getting extra cantrip damage to boot.

Action: Attack
Attack with a light weapon
Nick with another light Weapon
Cast a Cantrip (usually Truestrike, Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade)

Bonus Action:
Song of Victory attack triggered by casting a Cantrip

I suspect this will not survive to print and the final version will be when you expend a spell slot to cast a spell. If so it will be far more balanced.

 

[Blue]

A++ Green from me. Bladesinger has always been one my favorite subclasses in the game, and I love the changes.

I've mostly with you, though I'm more neutral to negative on the changes, but they left it mostly intact and that's good enough for me.

Bladework was sorely needed, and now added.

Counterpoint: Bladework is at most a tiny improvement, and can be a trap for players who don't think about it.

With no armor, a bladesinger in the front lines requires Dex for AC. That Dex also feeds a strong save, some skills, and initiative which is important for that first round AoE of choice if appropriate. This really isn't negotiable needing a strong Dex. So if you are using a finesse weapon, you're at best getting a +1 to hit/damage over Dex, and possibly less. A tiny adjustment.

But it's also a potential trap for a newer player, either because they don't realize how important Dex is and rely on Bladework, or worse they pick a non-finesse weapon. You now have a character who can't effectively melee unless they are using Bladesong, which means, agianst we're talking as a trap for inexperienced players, that they'll either burn them every combat and then find themselves out of them, or they won't and will provide the party a very inconsistant character for building synergy with as they are great at a role and absolutely avoiding that role and it's a bit of a toss-up which will be in play for any particular combat.

So it's at best a small bonus, and at worst a trap. That does not qualify as "sorely needed" in my book.

If you think it's sorely needed, please address why your INT would be so much more than your DEX.

Weapons as a spellfocus was sorely needed if your table actually cared about this, and now added.

You always had to have a hand free with the old bladesong, which means you could always deal with M & S components anyhow. This brings basically nothing. I fail to see how not effective change is sorely needed. It's a thematically nice ribbon with only corner case effects within the class itself. It's also nice for things like multiclassing for a shield for when you are not in bladesong, but since that's explicitly going outside the class, rating a class feature as sorely needed to enable it is a stretch for me.

Adding proficiency in all one-handed weapons is really nice vs the old method of only giving 1 proficiency, but isn't huge since you may still take a Fighter dip anyways if you want weapon mastery

I'm a bit more positive on this one, but more for playing with a DM who doesn't customize magic items for us -- having proficiency with more one-handed finesse weapons means a greater chance to find a magical one.

EDIT: Remembering that you can TWF, this becomes better.

Banning light armor is a nerf that I can get behind - Wizards should be in robes not studded leather armor (and is it even a nerf? Mage Armor exists).

It's a nerf, magic armor also exists. And while wizards should be in robes, Bladesingers aren't just wizards. Bladesingers first appeared in The Complete Book of Elves as a Kit for elven fighter/magic-users in AD&D 2nd - not pure magic-users (whom are now called wizards). They could cast in elven chain and any armor up to studded leather. Since their introduction into the game they have been armored.

Song of Victory got a major nerf but I can get behind that too - I'd much rather have Bladework at Level 3 than the old Song of Victory at 14, and stacking them was obviously not realistic. And the new version of Song of Victory is actually really nice for when you are torn between wanting to do melee damage because it's more fun but knowing that Wizard spells are far more powerful

As you say, a nerf.

So I'm somewhat down on the changes - a minor buff that could also be a trap, a thematic ribbon with little practical effect, and removing armor that has always been part of their legacy, just for an expanded list of one handed martial melee weapons.

EDIT: As mentioned about TWF, the thematic use of a weapon as a spellcasting focus is more than just a ribbon.

I'd still play one though, they left enough of the class untouched it's still great fun.

 

[Blue]

As printed in the UA this is EXTREMELY good. It means the new Bladesinger can make up t 4 attacks a round if they get nick through a multiclass or 12th level feat. That is the same number of attacks as a fighter is getting with nick or PAM at this level and the Bladesinger is getting extra cantrip damage to boot.

Action: Attack
Attack with a light weapon
Nick with another light Weapon
Cast a Cantrip (usually Truestrike, Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade)

Bonus Action:
Song of Victory attack triggered by casting a Cantrip

I suspect this will not survive to print and the final version will be when you expend a spell slot to cast a spell. If so it will be far more balanced.

Except that the casting time of the cantrip you cast was "one attack", not one action. If it didn't change, you couldn't cast it, so we absolutely know it had changed. Which means it doesn't trigger Song of Victory.

There's a lot of places that specify things like "when you disengage as an action" and they don't trigger if a rogue does them with a bonus action. This is settled rules.

 

[ECMO3]

Except that the casting time of the cantrip you cast was "one attack", not one action.

No, the casting time of the Cantrip itself is an Action, you just are not using the Magic Action to cast it, you are using the attack action to cast it.

If it didn't change, you couldn't cast it,

Actually, you have this backwords if the casting time of the spell itself changed you couldn't cast it as part of the attack action:

LEVEL 6: EXTRA ATTACK You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks.

The fact that you are using the Cantrip to replace an attack means it has a casting time of one action.

If the casting time of the cantrip changed then you would be in a vicious circle. You can only use Cantrips with a casting time of an action with the Bladesinger Extra Attack (and the similar Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight abilities). If the Truestrike Cantrip does not have a casting time of one action then it is not a Cantrip I can use with that Extra Attack feature.

There's a lot of places that specify things like "when you disengage as an action" and they don't trigger if a rogue does them with a bonus action. This is settled rules.

Sure. but that is fundamentally different. If the wording said when you use a Magic Action to cast a Cast a spell ...... then you would be correct and it would not trigger when cast with the attack action, but that is not what it says.

I expect the wording will change in the final version.

 

[ECMO3]

It's a nerf, magic armor also exists. And while wizards should be in robes, Bladesingers aren't just wizards. Bladesingers first appeared in The Complete Book of Elves as a Kit for elven fighter/magic-users in AD&D 2nd - not pure magic-users (whom are now called wizards). They could cast in elven chain and any armor up to studded leather. Since their introduction into the game they have been armored.

It is not a significant nerf. Magic Armor exists but magic light armor that will beat plain unboosted mage armor is less common than Bracers of Defense.

If you are building a martial wizard, someone who intends to be near 100% melee you are going to want the highest AC possible and in the vast majority of games this will not be a nerf. To do better than Mage Armor it would have to be a game where you could not craft or buy magic items and you happened to find Very Rare or Legendary studded armor before you found Rare Bracers of Defense and I don't see that happening very often.

If you are building a Gish controller that wants some extra defenses it might be a little more significant because you might value the slot more. Even in this case though, if you are in a game where you can craft magic items, 1st level scrolls are easy and cheap.