D&D (2024) 2024 Class Rankings (from nat1gaming.com) for ppl who believe that stuff.

My point was the very people who want powerful non magic classes are the ones who riot because it’s “unrealistic” to make them that powerful because ‘it must be magic’.

I’m just making an observation based on past arguments on this forum. I wasn’t disagreeing with your post.
I completely disagree then. The people who want powerful non-magic classes specifically do want them to remain non-magical. It's the people who want powerful magical classes that resist any attempt to allow non-magical classes to rise in power. I've seen this pattern numerous times both on ENWorld and elsewhere. Every time you give something to non-magic classes, magic classes have to get at least as much, if not more. Every time you take something from magic classes, non-magic classes must lose at least as much, if not more, or (more commonly) magic classes must be given something else to compensate their losses.
 

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I don't care about something I don't actually believe, lol.

It's been mentioned multiple times now: casters are not good until high levels. Even then it's mostly access to high level wizard spells that leads to the caster biases.
Not to mention that every BBEG at high levels has legendary resistances, generally on top of a bunch of basic resistances and defences.
Limited spell slots whiffing on low DC's is more restricting than some people seem to realize.
It makes playing a caster very feast or famine.
When spell casters have a lot of spell slots and have many spells prepared and have a higher DC and access to higher level spells they can do quite a bit, but that isn't all the time through all the levels or with all the disadvantages.

Something as simple as weapon masteries is per attack instead of per action opens up quite a bit with multiple attacks. I think casters and martials are different from instead of better or worse than.
Martial DPR is a bit broken in the 2024 rules.
 

But either magic needs to be nerfed, which will never happen because the caster fanatics will riot, or non-magic needs to be buffed, which will never happen because the caster fanatics will riot. Unless and until at least one of those two things is true, we're going to be sucked right back into this quicksand trap every time.
To be fair, there's a lot of non-caster fanatics who will riot if non-magic is buffed as well.
 

To be fair, there's a lot of non-caster fanatics who will riot if non-magic is buffed as well.
In many cases, it's less about buffed and more about being turned into magic. The most prominent example would be 4th Edition. The way powers worked gave many people the impression that martials and casters worked to similar.
PF2 does a pretty good job of martial/caster balance in my opinion.
 

I don't care about something I don't actually believe, lol.

It's been mentioned multiple times now: casters are not good until high levels. Even then it's mostly access to high level wizard spells that leads to the caster biases.

Limited spell slots whiffing on low DC's is more restricting than some people seem to realize.

When spell casters have a lot of spell slots and have many spells prepared and have a higher DC and access to higher level spells they can do quite a bit, but that isn't all the time through all the levels or with all the disadvantages.
I mean, you don't have to believe it or not. People swore up and down that non-casters weren't in any way lesser than casters in 5.0, and yet the designers themselves later straight-up said that long-rest characters, especially casters, were outperforming non-casters in the actual feedback they were getting from real, live games. Just because it isn't a problem for you doesn't mean it isn't a problem for anyone.

I fundamentally disagree that casters are "not good until high levels." They require slightly more optimization effort to reach their full potential, but that in no way means they're somehow bad until 11+ or whatever threshold you decide upon (since I find many who argue for such a threshold keep it quite...mobile, shall we say.) Wizards and Land Druids can be that good by level 6, doubly so because they have slot recovery mechanics. Fireball (Wizard, Arid Land Druids) and call lightning (any Druid) are great damage options, and you only need one other reliable damaging slotted spell (e.g. not cantrips) to have reliable damage output, e.g. magic missile (Wizard) or ice knife (Druid). Shield gives a Wizard all the in-combat defense you could ever need, to the point that Bladesinger Wizards are some of the best tanks in the game, and while Druid doesn't have anything quite that good, barkskin is still pretty solid. That's only three spells, and at level 6, a Wizard or Druid can prepare ten. Add in haste or fly for a terrifically strong buff effect (Druids would probably go with the ever-present backstop, revivify, or a spell from their subclass). And even if you did both, you'd still have half your prepared spells remaining.

I definitely think 10 spells prepared to spread across three spell levels--meaning you can have a distinct spell for every slot you have at 6th level!--is plenty to be versatile and yet also very strong. You can easily have one defensive option, one offensive option, and one other/utility option per spell level, plus an extra spell to do whatever you want with. And then Wizards are kings of ritual magic (any spell you've learned that has the Ritual tag can be cast, even if you haven't prepared it), meaning they get even more magic without needing slots to do it.

Something as simple as weapon masteries is per attack instead of per action opens up quite a bit with multiple attacks. I think casters and martials are different from instead of better or worse than.
Oh, don't get me wrong, weapon masteries are nice, especially because they're something spellcasters--even weaker ones like Warlocks--cannot get.

But I just flatly do not accept that even relatively powerful ones like Nick, Graze, or Vex are in any way comparable even to the power of a strong 1st-level spell like shield, silvery barbs, or healing word, let alone 3rd or 4th level spells. Obviously, weapon mastery properties are easier to use than these things because they just happen (though you are not quite correct, in that several of them are only 1/turn, not 1/hit, e.g. Vex, Slow, Nick, and Cleave are all once per turn). But just because it's simple doesn't mean it's stronger. Class tiers are about potential power if you optimize, not about average performance if you presume an undefined but low level of system knowledge. Spellcasters so heavily reward making "the right" decision (or at least "a very good" decision) that their power spikes pretty hard if played to the hilt. Which...is the point of the tiers. If someone is just casually playing and doesn't really think about mechanics or optimization, then any conception of "tier list" is out the window from the get-go; you have presumed that the player generally isn't bothering to be stronger, and thus any claim that these other things are thus stronger is circular logic.
 


In many cases, it's less about buffed and more about being turned into magic.
This I 100% agree with.

The most prominent example would be 4th Edition. The way powers worked gave many people the impression that martials and casters worked to similar.
This I do not. Whoever got that impression was simply being persnickety. That's like saying that because everyone rolls d20s, everyone must be a Fighter. Utterly ridiculous.

PF2 does a pretty good job of martial/caster balance in my opinion.
It's certainly better, but I don't have enough experience with it. My superficial understanding, based merely on glancing through some of the mechanics, was that casters had been brought down but martials had been saddled with some pretty significant burdens themselves (e.g., shields were nerfed HARD by making it take one of your three actions per turn to get any benefit whatsoever from them.)
 

I’m not surprised that top 4 of 5 classes are charisma based. Too many classes use charisma which makes for powerful spellcasting, multi classing, and social pillar dominance.

Which makes me wonder why everyone wanted the new Purple dragon knight to be based on charisma.

Warlock should be an Int class, imo, so there’s less synergy with the paladin
Maybe Ranger can be an Intelligence caster, with a MacGyver vibe rigging things together.

I would love choosable casting abilities

Cleric: either Wis or Cha
Druid: either Wis or Int
Bard: either Cha or Int
Sorcerer: either Cha or Con (!)
Warlock: either Cha or Int
Wizard: either Int or Wis

Paladin: Cha or Wis
Ranger: Int or Wis

Psion: Cha, Wis, or Int

Choose at the time of character creation.
 

Re: Martial vs Caster
The main issue is that casters get to keep their lower level slots. Level 20 Wizard can cast Shield, Enhance Abilities, and Arcane Eye without it affecting their big move.

If they scaled more like warlocks, with scaling slots, it would be a lot easier to balance. A warlock needs to think twice about casting Shield or Arcane eye.
This is one of the reasons why short-rest spell points are more balanced than traditional long-rest spell slots.

The points are: Level + 1
The cost is: slot
The refresh is per short rest.
So, a level 10 caster has 11 points, Fireball costs 3 points, refreshable per short rest.
This prevents "novas", and forces meaningful choices between several low slots or one high slot.
 

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