D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[CreamCloud0]

Angel Summoner / BMX Bandit. The power to swing a sword REAL GOOD will never really be equal to the power of being able to literally make your wish come true once a day. Training doesn't let you transcend dimensions.

I always wonder what would've happened if magic items followed the same arc for fighters that spells followed for mages. As D&D went on, the ability to pick specific spells and the guarantee to learn them and to cast them became more and more reliable - a part of the mage's skill set. Magic items began primarily as a Fighter thing (via their equipment proficiencies). I imagine a D&D version where belts of giant strength and flametongues and invisibility rings and the like aren't distributed to everyone, but are a guaranteed, reliable part of a fighter's skill set, where fighter players get to pick and choose magical equipment that is an assumed part of a fighter's power.

It'd be a pretty dramatic change to 5e's assumptions, but it's something that keeps popping into my head when these conversations come up. If the BMX Bandit has a bike that can teleport and fly and shoot lasers and ride independently and whose tire air can raise the dead or whatever, the gap definitely shrinks.

If owning a sword that could slice between the planes and a shield that raised the dead and an amulet that granted wishes was part of your class options as a martial character, you get a little closer to the mage in terms of capability. Spells on one side, magic equipment on the other.

there's still the fact this fails the fantasy for the people who want their characters to be powerful and competent by their character's own merits, where the awesomeness is part of the character rather than all the trinkets they're carrying, if the guy next to me could be just as powerful if they were given my stuff how does that make ME any part of the hero? and if the wizard does manage to get their hands a belt of giant's strength and ring of invisibility then they're just outclassing me twofold.

 

[Scribe]

if the guy next to me could be just as powerful if they were given my stuff how does that make ME any part of the hero?

He cannot. As you level up, your saves improve, your attacks improve, your other stats improve.

That is what reflects upon the difference between an adventurer who will stand in front of a Demon Lord, and a Farmer who will run.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Training doesn't let you throw mountains. No amount of training gives you True Resurrection or Wish. If you are going with "non-supernatural explanation" you are always going to get boxed in. I'd rather concede the "nonmagical/nonsupernatural martial" space to the "supernatural, but not magical" space and then open the floodgates than have diverting a river be totally within the realms of possible if you pray, train, and take your vitamins.

Training doesn't let you cast wish ON EARTH either.

You can't have it both ways. You can't hold one thing to "it must be 100% perfectly achievable on Earth" AND "sure whatever who cares it's Magic and Magic can do whatever it wants."

That's where the favoritism, the "your preferences are tolerated but not welcome here" problem I keep complaining about.

 

[Hussar]

getting the danger vs heroic craziness right has been a running target , which has never ever been actually agreed on so yeah. They've done that, they'll at some point borrow from 3rd or even 2nd or other games again in the future. If the game stops changing only the new players need books and then there is no reason for the big companies to print books or sell PDF's. I at this point almost wish DND would collapse in on itself and become a niche again so some small company could pay a group of Dev's to not change the rules to sell books but go back to selling modules and dice and campaign settings etc. again. I thought if the movies took off Hasbro might just freeze dnd and start making it like their other games just something else they sell but seems they'll tinker away until they do something that craters the game or some other game takes it's place.

Umm, one set of new books every ten years seems pretty much like they are keeping the game pretty frozen. Considering the new books work perfectly fine with the old books.

You already got your wish.

 

[Micah Sweet]

there's still the fact this fails the fantasy for the people who want their characters to be powerful and competent by their character's own merits, where the awesomeness is part of the character rather than all the trinkets they're carrying, if the guy next to me could be just as powerful if they were given my stuff how does that make ME any part of the hero? and if the wizard does manage to get their hands a belt of giant's strength and ring of invisibility then they're just outclassing me twofold.

That's what supernatural martials are for. I think it should be it's own class.

 

[Remathilis]

Training doesn't let you cast wish ON EARTH either.

You can't have it both ways. You can't hold one thing to "it must be 100% perfectly achievable on Earth" AND "sure whatever who cares it's Magic and Magic can do whatever it wants."

That's where the favoritism, the "your preferences are tolerated but not welcome here" problem I keep complaining about.

Let me put this simply.

Training + Supernatural power source = Supernatural effects.
Training + NonSupernatural power source = mundane effects.

If Fighter has supernatural power source, then they get supernatural effects. If Fighter does not have supernatural power source, they get far less amazing effects.

Supernatural does not mean "magic". It DOES mean something more than training though. Psionics, supernatural bloodlines, otherworldly blessings, channeling nature, focus/ki/mystic life force. The barbarian's rage is supernatural and more than just a bad attitude. They channel Primal energy into extraordinary abilities. If Rage were stated to be even more overtly supernatural, it could get away with even more supernatural effects. Is rage magic? No. Does it cast spells? No. (Well, depending on the subclass). Is the supernatural? You bet your World Tree! And there is a lot of design space the barbarian left on the table because they were too afraid to say rage is overtly supernatural. The same is true of the monk's ki/focus abilities. Monks were overtly supernatural and WotC dialed that back some. (I get their reasons, but still). Monks can speak any language! They stop aging and are immune to poison and diseases! Why? Frickin mystical energy.

Monk, Barbarian, they are on the cusp of getting it. Dial them up a few degrees and then the mountain-smashing can begin! All you gotta do then is give fighters and rogues the same treatment and they can join the party.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Training doesn't let you cast wish ON EARTH either.

You can't have it both ways. You can't hold one thing to "it must be 100% perfectly achievable on Earth" AND "sure whatever who cares it's Magic and Magic can do whatever it wants."

That's where the favoritism, the "your preferences are tolerated but not welcome here" problem I keep complaining about.

Sure you can. Things that you can do in real life work like in real life (maybe a little better; ie, action movie style). Things you can't do in real life are some variety of supernatural (not necessarily wiggle-your-fingers magic) and work like however the setting has them work, probably in multiple ways depending on the explanation. You can add supernatural sauce to an otherwise "action movie real life" character if you want to go beyond those limits.

 

[dave2008]

He cannot. As you level up, your saves improve, your attacks improve, your other stats improve.

That is what reflects upon the difference between an adventurer who will stand in front of a Demon Lord, and a Farmer who will run.

Not to mention they are not proficient with your equipment, nor do they likely have your stats.

 

[dave2008]

Let me put this simply.

Training + Supernatural power source = Supernatural effects.
Training + NonSupernatural power source = mundane effects.

If Fighter has supernatural power source, then they get supernatural effects. If Fighter does not have supernatural power source, they get far less amazing effects.

Supernatural does not mean "magic". It DOES mean something more than training though. Psionics, supernatural bloodlines, otherworldly blessings, channeling nature, focus/ki/mystic life force. The barbarian's rage is supernatural and more than just a bad attitude. They channel Primal energy into extraordinary abilities. If Rage were stated to be even more overtly supernatural, it could get away with even more supernatural effects. Is rage magic? No. Does it cast spells? No. (Well, depending on the subclass). Is the supernatural? You bet your World Tree! And there is a lot of design space the barbarian left on the table because they were too afraid to say rage is overtly supernatural. The same is true of the monk's ki/focus abilities. Monks were overtly supernatural and WotC dialed that back some. (I get their reasons, but still). Monks can speak any language! They stop aging and are immune to poison and diseases! Why? Frickin mystical energy.

Monk, Barbarian, they are on the cusp of getting it. Dial them up a few degrees and then the mountain-smashing can begin! All you gotta do then is give fighters and rogues the same treatment and they can join the party.

I generally agree with your assessment, I would just add that, IMO, the "supernatural power source" can simply be the setting. So in a setting were the supernatural power source is everywhere, then the effects are, effectively, "natural" for that setting. In such a setting, someone can simply train and achieve supernatural effects (though in setting they would be deemed "natural").

 

[Scribe]

Supernatural does not mean "magic". It DOES mean something more than training though. Psionics, supernatural bloodlines, otherworldly blessings, channeling nature, focus/ki/mystic life force. The barbarian's rage is supernatural and more than just a bad attitude. They channel Primal energy into extraordinary abilities.

This IS all magic. It's not Arcane study, but it IS magic.