D&D (2024) Which class is the most durable (level 1)?

[ECMO3]

Warlock shield only works once per short rest. Warlock AC will be terrible 14- 15 or so vs 18-19.

Not true. The Warlock can cast Shield once a day from the feat PLUS once with each short rest.

Basic Studded Leather with Bladeward and 16 Dexterity is equivalent to 17.5 on average and that is using basic 1st level starting funds and being able to use both Versatile and ranged weapons.

18 or 19 is only available on a Fighter if they carry a shield which means being within 30 feet to be effective..

One of the key reason I think a level 1 Warlock is generally going to be more durable is situational, they have more options for "decent" damage, the best one in terms of duribility being at long range where they can still d0 1d8+dex from 80 feet, attacking with advantage from a familiar and in melee Range dealing damage through a familiar while also giving the bad guy disadvantage from poisoned often.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not true. The Warlock can cast Shield once a day from the feat PLUS once with each short rest.

Basic Studded Leather with Bladeward and 16 Dexterity is equivalent to 17.5 on average and that is using basic 1st level starting funds and being able to use both Versatile and ranged weapons.

18 or 19 is only available on a Fighter if they carry a shield which means being within 30 feet to be effective..

One of the key reason I think a level 1 Warlock is generally going to be more durable is situational, they have more options for "decent" damage, the best one in terms of duribility being at long range where they can still d0 1d8+dex from 80 feet, attacking with advantage from a familiar and in melee Range dealing damage through a familiar while also giving the bad guy disadvantage from poisoned often.

To situational though. Fighter can also take the same feat so that's a wash. Fighter xan also use blade ward.

If you're using your 1 spell slot it saves you once

What cripples the warlock is light armor only no shields.

 

[Ashrym]

Not true. The Warlock can cast Shield once a day from the feat PLUS once with each short rest.

Basic Studded Leather with Bladeward and 16 Dexterity is equivalent to 17.5 on average and that is using basic 1st level starting funds and being able to use both Versatile and ranged weapons.

18 or 19 is only available on a Fighter if they carry a shield which means being within 30 feet to be effective..

One of the key reason I think a level 1 Warlock is generally going to be more durable is situational, they have more options for "decent" damage, the best one in terms of duribility being at long range where they can still d0 1d8+dex from 80 feet, attacking with advantage from a familiar and in melee Range dealing damage through a familiar while also giving the bad guy disadvantage from poisoned often.

Blade ward with your 16 DEX still means 14 CON. Goblin minions and kobolds with their +4 to hit will hit that approximately 1 out of 3 attacks and approximately 1 out of 3 hits will break concentration dropping blade ward. This causes a drop in AC for subsequent attacks until the action cost to bring blade ward back up.

On a lucky day 1 in 10 incoming attacks would cost the warlock both durability and damage.

The damage is 4 points from those attacks. The warlock with 10 HP and 5thp takes 4 hits to drop and cannot recover HP or tho during combat.

The fighter doesn't lose AC from lost concentration. The fighter gets hit less often before accounting for disadvantage. The fighter with 15 HP would also take 4 hits to drop, but after 2 hits spends a bonus action to recover 6.5 HP, takes 2 more hits and spends another bonus action to recover 6.5 HP, and then takes another 3 hits before hitting 0 HP.

7 hits vs 4 hits is almost twice the hits. This is before 1 round of shield vs many attacks that inflict disadvantage.

The short rest argument doesn't change that.

The warlock would need to rest after 3 hits, gains 6 or 7 HP spending 1 HD, and can add 5 thp again going back up to 14 or 15 HP. Good for taking 3 more hits before another rest. That's 6 hits total so far.

The fighter would need to rest after taking 6 hits. He would gain 8.5 HP from HD expenditure and would take 2 hits before taking a bonus action to second wind, and takes another 2 hits before needing a rest.

At this point the warlock has 2 or 3 HP and the fighter has 3 HP but the warlock took 6 hits to get there and the fighter took 10.

The warlock gets stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Shield is better for deflecting attacks but there's no point without the ability to replenish hit points so they're in a cycle of needing a short rest after every hit to renew 5thp.

The fighter taking the short rest is good for 2 hits after using second wind at that point and can easily match the warlock shorts rest after taking a hit. The fighter can also take a short rest after not taking a hit a build up hit points or more rests to get back to 2 uses second wind available and full hit points.

The only thing holding fighters back is taking all those short rests becomes unlikely and that's true for warlocks too

I'm not seeing the warlock advantage here.

 

[ECMO3]

To situational though. Fighter can also take the same feat so that's a wash. Fighter xan also use blade ward.

If you're using your 1 spell slot it saves you once

What cripples the warlock is light armor only no shields.

It is all situational and I said that above.

A Fighter can only use Bladeward if he took the magic initiate feat or a High Elf that managed to get a long rest before making it to 2nd level and in either of those cases he gives up durability from either not taking tough or not playing a Dwarf or an Orc.

What strengthens the Warlock is not having to go into melee to deal decent damage and having a better action economy due to a familiar.

Yes, each spell slot saves you once and it will likely "save" more hit points than second wind will restore.

Like I said earlier the fighter has 2 second winds plus one more per short rest. The Warlock in the example has one Shield, one Armor of Agathys and then one more of one of the two for each short rest.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

It is all situational and I said that above.

A Fighter can only use Bladeward if he took the magic initiate feat or a High Elf that managed to get a long rest before making it to 2nd level and in either of those cases he gives up durability from either not taking tough or not playing a Dwarf or an Orc.

What strengthens the Warlock is not having to go into melee to deal decent damage and having a better action economy due to a familiar.

Yes, each spell slot saves you once and it will likely "save" more hit points than second wind will restore.

Like I said earlier the fighter has 2 second winds plus one more per short rest. The Warlock in the example has one Shield, one Armor of Agathys and then one more of one of the two for each short rest.

Are you also assuming 1 round combats like in your 2024 2nd-20th campaign thread?

 

[ECMO3]

Blade ward with your 16 DEX still means 14 CON.

If you are rolling that depends on your rolls but on point buy you can do 16 Dex and 16 Con and Bladeward is a Warlock Cantrip.

In fact I would dump Charisma if I was purposely building a max-durability 1st level PC. Here is the point-buy array I would use:

S12 D16 C16 I8 W14 CH8

Goblin minions and kobolds with their +4 to hit will hit that approximately 1 out of 3 attacks and approximately 1 out of 3 hits will break concentration dropping blade ward.

1 in 3 will not hit and even if it was, this is 9 attacks. How many attacks do you think a 1st level character attacking from range is going to take before advancing to level 2?

On a lucky day 1 in 10 incoming attacks would cost the warlock both durability and damage.

Not considering the shield spell and not considering enemies being poisoned or scared. Add those and it is more like 1 in 15 or 20 which is more attacks than he can expect to take at 1st level

The damage is 4 points from those attacks. The warlock with 10 HP and 5thp takes 4 hits to drop and cannot recover HP or tho during combat.

Yes, so gues your point is he won't drop.

4 hits is 12 attacks by your flawed math, more like 20 attacks in play .... which is more than a 1sst level character will typically take between rests.

The fighter doesn't lose AC from lost concentration. The fighter gets hit less often before accounting for disadvantage.

The fighter can't poison or scare enemies either and is in or close melee to have decent damage, where he is taking a lot more attacks.

The fighter with 15 HP would also take 4 hits to drop, but after 2 hits spends a bonus action to recover 6.5 HP, takes 2 more hits and spends another bonus action to recover 6.5 HP, and then takes another 3 hits before hitting 0 HP.

You are not considering the shield spell. Chances are when it comes to those first two hits, one of them missed the Warlock. Possibly both of them missed the Warlock

The warlock would need to rest after 3 hits,

yes after 3 hits .... which is going to take on the order of 15 attacks ... or about all the time spent adventuring at 1st level.

The fighter would need to rest after taking 6 hits.

Which is going to come a lot faster than the 4 hits (3 + shielded one) the Warlock needs to suffer.

I'm not seeing the warlock advantage here.

The Warlock's advantages are as follows (in relative order of importance):

1. Has more total hit points at start of day (casting False Life)
2. Primarily attacks from range, and when forced into melee regularly puts opponents at disadvantage from poison or scare (Quasit).
3. Can cast shield spell killing at least one hit per day.
4. Can cast another shield spell every time they short rest (or Armor of Agathys if they need that instead).

The intent of this thread was to explore the most durable 1st level PC that still did decent damage. It is all situational, but I reject the notion that durability is just about static AC, hit points and healing available. It is more about tactics and employment than it is any of those and things that afford such options while still being competitive in terms of the basic numbers will generally be more effective IMO. Without any other specific defining terms or assumptions I stand by what I said earler - a Dwarf Warlock with Magic Initiate feat because I think that build offers the most durability. It does not offer the most hit points, it does not offer the best AC, it is not the best tank, but I think it is generally the most durable, or at least the most durable build I can think of using the 2024 rules.

 

[ECMO3]

Are you also assuming 1 round combats like in your 2024 2nd-20th campaign thread?

Did you actually read that thread? Here is what I said in that thread about low level combat: "combat takes a lot longer at low level"

In any case we did not play 1st level in that game, so it is not really relevant to this discussion, and the quote above was meant to indicate time at the table, not rounds as I do not recall a difference in rounds at low level.

To answer your question though, at level 1 I would assume 3-4 rounds per combat and 2-3 combats before you reach level 2 (and the latter is on the high end).

So lets say 10 rounds of combat total at level 1. How many times do you think a PC attacking from Range will get attacked in those 10 rounds? I would guess around 15 times, with around 3 of those being a hit.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Did you actually read that thread? Here is what I said in that thread about low level combat: "combat takes a lot longer at low level"

In any case we did not play 1st level in that game, so it is not really relevant to this discussion, and the quote above was meant to indicate time at the table, not rounds as I do not recall a difference in rounds at low level.

To answer your question though, at level 1 I would assume 3-4 rounds per combat and 2-3 combats before you reach level 2 (and the latter is on the high end).

So let’s say 10 rounds of combat total at level 1. How many times do you think a PC attacking from Range will get attacked in those 10 rounds? I would guess around 15 times, with around 3 of those being a hit.

I’ll assume you weren’t intentionally trying to be rude and then strangely contradictory. Internet is sometimes hard to read.

So… To answer your question: The number of times the Eldritch blasting warlock is attacked and damaged will depend on the various scene/environment setups and how the DM assigns tactics and motivations to the enemies. Ranged PCs aren’t always safely “in the back” of the party and, even if they were, “in the back” does not mean “furthest from all enemies”. So… who knows?

You do bring up an interesting point. If we’re going to consider the most durable class at level 1 as one being attacked less than others, perhaps we need to consider a rogue with expertise in Stealth who might be best at hiding, avoiding damage altogether.

 

[mellored]

I don't agree with this.

The 1st level warlock cannot have both a 16 DEX and a 16 CON on point buy, standard spread, or average rolls spreads and still have a 16 CHA.

You can.

It's 9 points to have a 15.
*3 = 27 points.
and +1/+1/+1 as your background.

= 16/16/16/8/8/8

I'd would generally wouldn't recommend going with 8 wis, bit it's a perfectly legal array.
(Works for a monk though, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 16 Wis)

 

[bedir than]

I'm going with Barbarian, with 16s in Dex and Con. Use a Shield and a sap weapon, but probably not a longsword because that's boring (War Pick could be fun since I'd likely go with a Dwarf)
Although the Mord's Stone Genasi (Blade Ward) or Mord's Hobgoblin (temp HP) are compelling.