D&D (2024) Which class is the most durable (level 1)?

[ECMO3]

So… To answer your question: The number of times the Eldritch blasting warlock is attacked and damaged will depend on the various scene/environment setups and how the DM assigns tactics and motivations to the enemies. Ranged PCs aren’t always safely “in the back” of the party and, even if they were, “in the back” does not mean “furthest from all enemies”. So… who knows?

I would not be Eldritch Blasting on a 1st level Warlock built for durability, in fact I would dump Charisma and use a crossbow which does more damage.

I agree that ranged PCs are not always safely in the back, but I think they will be attacked less often than someone closer to the front, enough less that they will be more durable considering they have better action economy, comparable abilities to make themselves difficult to hit and relatively close hit points and AC.

I actually gave a number above and said I think he would probably be attacked 15 times in 10 rounds of combat in 2-3 battles at 1st level. Do you think that number is off?

You do bring up an interesting point. If we’re going to consider the most durable class at level 1 as one being attacked less than others, perhaps we need to consider a rogue with expertise in Stealth who might be best at hiding, avoiding damage altogether.

The question was most Durable while doing decent damage output. A Rogue who hides at level 1 would do no damage.

At 2nd level though, a Halfling Rogue who could use Cunning action to hide behind an ally without being fully obscured would certainly be a decent option.

2nd level is a lot more difficult than first though because there are a lot more class abilities that come into play (like Cunning Action). I think several classes would be more durable than a Warlock can be at 2nd level, a Halfling Rogue being one of those.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't agree with this.

The 1st level warlock cannot have both a 16 DEX and a 16 CON on point buy, standard spread, or average rolls spreads and still have a 16 CHA. If we're presenting 16 DEX for AC then we're looking at 14 CON. That 1st level warlock has 10 hp.

16 Con is not doable using Standard Array, but 16 Con is not doable on a Fighter either using Standard Array. Both Warlock and Fighter get a 13 Con (before bonuses) on Standard Array using the 2024 rules. If we are forced to use Standard Array, the most durable class is not Warlock, nor a Fighter.

On point buy it is totally doable. That said I would not have a 16 Charisma on point buy, I would dump Charisma. Here is how I would do point buy:

S12 D16 C16 I8 W14 CH8

There is no reason to have any Charisma at all on this build. You could argue for a higher strength and a lower Wisdom, or a 16 Wisdom and an 8 Strength, but anything at all in Charisma or Intelligence is a waste IMO for this particular exercise.

I would get an attack Cantrip for dealing with swarms (probably Firebolt), but I would get it through Magic Initiate and put it on Wisdom.

That is 11 hps as a base Warlock with a 16 Con, add one more hp for Dwarf and it is 12 then add 5 temp hit points for using the first pact slot immediately when he wakes up on Armor of Agathys and it is 17 total hit points until he takes damage or takes another long rest. A Dwarf Fighter with tough and 16 Constitution starts the day with 16, one less.

Shield is still only for 1 round for the free use once compared to a higher AC almost the entire time plus using weapon mastery to apply disadvantage.

Shield is one free use use plus one more use per short rest (assuming you spend your first pact slot on AOA).

Second Wind is similar - 2 uses plus one more use per short rest .... and I think Shield compares pretty well with second Wind in how many hit points it will "provide".

The Warlock also has a familiar to apply disadvantage (Quasit), won't be attacked as often and can situationally position his familiar for cover to improve AC.

Also you need to be in Heavy Armor to have a significantly better AC even without the Shield spell and if you are in heavy armor with a 16 Con then you are sacrificing Dexterity (initiative) or Wisdom (Wisdom saves) both of which are significant when it comes to durability. The Warlock I am talking about is based on a 16 Dex and Con can still have a good Wisdom because they do not need a high strength.

People keep saying Fighter and Barbarian, but they are underestimating the effectiveness of Shield spell in terms of your hit point budget. TBH I think an optimized Paladin, Cleric and maybe even Ranger would be better than Fighter or Barbarian in most campaigns because of this (having spell slots to cast shield), although none of them have the combination of features a Warlock has at 1st level.

There's not way to twist that in favor of the warlock.

It is all very situational, but IMO a Warlock, played intelligently, will be more durable because their tools better enable it. Considering the tools at their disposal, I think it will be in favor of the Warlock more than it will be in favor of any other class at first level.

At 2nd level when the warlock has access to more invocations and invocations level-gated to 2nd level things are different. Fiendish vigor is worth 12 thp at will so no slots need to be split for armor of agathys and shield, and the spell slots for shield doubled.

At 2nd level the Warlock is not even in consideration I don't think. Multiple classes are better if you are going through this exercise at 2nd level, including as someone else noted Rogue with Cunning action. Also a Fighter at 2nd level can use an action to dodge and then use action surge to attack.

 

[ECMO3]

double post

 

[Ashrym]

If you are rolling that depends on your rolls but on point buy you can do 16 Dex and 16 Con and Bladeward is a Warlock Cantrip.

A human warlock with the charlatan (or custom) background on a point buy can go 8 STR, 16 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 8 WIS, and 16 CHA then pick up magic initiate from the bonus feat but we're getting rather specific at this point, and 3 dump stats is not what I would consider typical.

They need to take the three +1 option.

In doing so the 1 hp from slightly better CON and slightly better concentration save isn't going to make much of a difference.

In fact I would dump Charisma if I was purposely building a max-durability 1st level PC. Here is the point-buy array I would use:

S12 D16 C16 I8 W14 CH8

No one builds for 1st level, lol. That does demonstrate the two 16's and a 14 I was going with, though. ;-)

1 in 3 will not hit and even if it was, this is 9 attacks. How many attacks do you think a 1st level character attacking from range is going to take before advancing to level 2?

They need a 13 to hit AC 17 and 14 to hit AC 18 so that is 1 out of 3 attacks hitting outside of the 1 free shield spell.

Earlier you were arguing that temp hp were renewable on short rests because of pact magic so I would point out it's impossible to replace thp without taking hits.

I think we play a full game session before advancing to level 2, to answer the question though.

Not considering the shield spell and not considering enemies being poisoned or scared.

I mentioned the shield spell only lasting one round repeatedly and pointed out that one spell slot can be spent on either shield or armor of agathys but not both. And you were already arguing thp from armor of agathys so that spell slot goes to armor of agathys.

Poisoned from the auasit is going to provide the same benefit as sap from weapon masteries so that's not an advantage.

Scared from the quasit is a single target once per day with a 10 DC so might work 50% of the time on a goblin minion with the chance going down as WIS goes up or proficiency exists. The possibility of not being approached by one target if the quasit is in the way when that target can still attack via ranged weapons doesn't make the warlock more durable.

Add those and it is more like 1 in 15 or 20 which is more attacks than he can expect to take at 1st level

A +2 saving throw bonus against a DC 10 check is 35% chance to fail, about 1 in 3 as stated. The 13 or 14 to hit is 32.5% chance to hit, about 1 in 3 as stated. The actual hit rate is slightly more than 1 in 9 and the one free shield spell still leaves it at around 1 in 10 hits dropping blade ward.

The XP budget for a 1st level character in an easy encounter is 50 xp. This would be 2 giant crabs, for example. It takes 6 of those encounters to reach 2nd level. Each encounter lasts long enough for the warlock or fighter to kill 3 13 hp monsters and each monster gets to attack. It takes a d8 weapon +3 ability mod an average of 2 hits to drop each giant crab. Each crab has an AC of 15 and the fighter or warlock with +5 to hit would take about 4 attacks to do this. If you're attacking at 1 attack per round that's a lot of rounds and incoming attacks. That would be over 40 attacks to level up coming in.

Rats, or bandits, or cultists would be a lot less and easier to kill. Bandits are also CR 1/8 (25xp ea) with 12 AC and 11 hp. 1st level characters hit them 70% of the time and still take 2 hits to kill. It would take about 3 attacks to do this. Again at 1 attack per round 6 attacks is quite a bit of time to have attacks coming back.

A single giant wasp is a hard encounter for a single 1st level character. 3 of these encounters can level the character up. They have AC 13 and 22 hp, and engage in flyby attacks. The warlock can attack normally at range and a fighter who is not ranged can ready an action to attack. A 1st level character will hit 65% of the time and it takes about 4 hits so 6 attacks. A giant wasp does 10 damage so one round with shield likely deflects one attack. It takes the wasp 2 hits to drop the warlock out of 4-5 attacks when 1 out of 3 is a hit. That's significant chance to die that encounter. A fighter with 19 AC and blade ward up takes 3 hits to drop using both second winds during the encounter with about 1 in 6 chance of being hit because of the higher AC and can use shield to deflect the 1 attack that might hit. 3 of those to level up would be 18 incoming attacks except I think the warlock would die.

A performer is also a hard encounter for a single 1st level PC. They have 13 AC and 27 hp. They also have uncanny dodge. A first level character hits that 65% of the time for about 4 damage after uncanny dodge halves it. That takes about 11 attacks by one PC. If it takes 10 round to kill an encounter that's 10 rounds of being attacked.

It takes 1 hard, 2 medium, and 2 easy encounters for a 1st level character to level up. Or 3 hard encounters, or 4 medium encounters, or 6 easy encounters.

I'm not sure many players would say they take a short rest after every encounter but your warlock would need to, and on that same note the warlock needs to be capable of surviving the encounter in order to take the short rest.

There are plenty of encounters for 1st level characters where many attacks would be expected. Not getting attacked for whatever reason isn't a demonstration of durability.

4 hits is 12 attacks by your flawed math, more like 20 attacks in play .... which is more than a 1sst level character will typically take between rests.

You should demonstrate this.

The fighter can't poison or scare enemies either and is in or close melee to have decent damage, where he is taking a lot more attacks.

The fighter doesn't need to poison or scare enemies. These provide disadvantage on attacks and the fighter can already do this with weapon mastery. It's not like one source of disadvantage does more disadvantage than another source of disadvantage.

What the fighter can also do is also pick up the shield and blade ward spells with magic initiate on a human who also has tough with the plan on going EK.

You are not considering the shield spell. Chances are when it comes to those first two hits, one of them missed the Warlock. Possibly both of them missed the Warlock.

I am considering the shield spell. I pointed out it's only good for a round.

I also also have 2 out of 3 attacks missing the warlock.

The problem is 3 out 4 of the attacks directed at the fighter's AC also miss before applying disadvantage from weapon mastery. I didn't even give the fighter blade ward even tho it's easy to acquire. The fighter would get hit less often. Especially if the fighter also picks up blade ward and shield.

yes after 3 hits .... which is going to take on the order of 15 attacks ... or about all the time spent adventuring at 1st level.

Or the <9 because of the possible loss of blade ward.

The presumptions you're expressing are going to apply to all classes and doesn't somehow make warlocks more durable when barbarians, clerics, fighters, and paladins aren't facing more attacks in the scenario.

I could pick up the shield and blade ward spells on a druid, have healing spells, and make him human for the healer feat and that bonus to healing spells too and he'd be competitive with the warlock. ;-)

Which is going to come a lot faster than the 4 hits (3 + shielded one) the Warlock needs to suffer.

Based on what?

The Warlock's advantages are as follows (in relative order of importance):

1. Has more total hit points at start of day (casting False Life)

Where did false life come into this? Armor of agathys is only 5 hp and false life isn't on the warlock spell list.

2. Primarily attacks from range, and when forced into melee regularly puts opponents at disadvantage from poison or scare (Quasit).

Disadvantage is the same disadvantage that longsword, morning star, flail, or war pick can also apply with the weapon and shield fighter.

The humanoids often encounter at 1st level also have ranged weapons. The non-humanoid can close fairly quickly.

Are you implying I cannot make a ranged fighter?

3. Can cast shield spell killing at least one hit per day.

Shield isn't guaranteed to prevent that one hit, and a fighter can pick that up too.

4. Can cast another shield spell every time they short rest (or Armor of Agathys if they need that instead).

You were arguing that the number of attacks don't exist so how does this play out? Is your argument that the warlock casts shield, then the fight ends quickly with the warlock never taking damage, then everyone takes a short rest so the shield spell is available?

This would allow shield more often but that removes the 5 thp in the process.

Without any other specific defining terms or assumptions I stand by what I said earler - a Dwarf Warlock with Magic Initiate feat because I think that build offers the most durability. It does not offer the most hit points, it does not offer the best AC, it is not the best tank, but I think it is generally the most durable, or at least the most durable build I can think of using the 2024 rules.

You don't think a dwarf fighter with the magic initiate feat with the higher AC, blade ward, the shield spell, and second wind is more durable? The fighter can even keep blade ward up more consistently because they have CON save proficiency.

 

[Willie the Duck]

You missed that half damage is more than double, because you round down.

If you got hit 5 times for 5 damage, you only took 20 total damage.

Also a healing word on a Barbarian is likely to be 2 hits instead of 1.

Oh, to be sure, this is all back-of-napkin-ing it. We can throw in massive amounts of other situational changes (say, anything that does fire or poison).

Perhaps better not to have done everything down to the .5 point, presenting a false sense of accuracy.

 

[FrogReaver]

Interesting to see Barbarian overtaking Fighter in the polls.

The primary reason I picked fighter over barbarian was that a barbarian may takes hits on round 1 before he can rage.

The distant secondary consideration was that the fighter can extend the adventuring day better with his healing from 2nd wind.

I don’t fault anyone for picking barbarian though. He has some of his own perks.

 

[Zardnaar]

Interesting to see Barbarian overtaking Fighter in the polls.

The primary reason I picked fighter over barbarian was that a barbarian may takes hits on round 1 before he can rage.

The distant secondary consideration was that the fighter can extend the adventuring day better with his healing from 2nd wind.

I don’t fault anyone for picking barbarian though. He has some of his own perks.

It's understandable. I voted for fighter but it's one of those two imho.

Lvl 1 not doing the 6-8 encounters or even 4. It's probably 1-3 long rest time.

It's to subjective other wise we have to invent scenarios to "prove" it lol.

 

[ECMO3]

A human warlock with the charlatan (or custom) background on a point buy can go 8 STR, 16 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 8 WIS, and 16 CHA then pick up magic initiate from the bonus feat but we're getting rather specific at this point, and 3 dump stats is not what I would consider typical.

They need to take the three +1 option.

In doing so the 1 hp from slightly better CON and slightly better concentration save isn't going to make much of a difference.

As I noted above if I was building the PC I would dump Charisma, get a 14 in Wisdom and a 12 in Strength. So I would not have 3 dump stats.

No one builds for 1st level, lol. That does demonstrate the two 16's and a 14 I was going with, though. ;-)

The post is about then most durable build at 1st level. The example I am going to use is going to be specifically and ONLY for this level.

Asking what PC is most durable at first level while being good at other levels as well is fundamentally a different discussion, and not one where I would pick a Warlock.

They need a 13 to hit AC 17 and 14 to hit AC 18 so that is 1 out of 3 attacks hitting outside of the 1 free shield spell.

Outside of the free shield spell and the shield spells from Pact slots using any short rests they take.

Fundamental to this discussion; how many times do you think this PC is going to be attacked?

Earlier you were arguing that temp hp were renewable on short rests because of pact magic so I would point out it's impossible to replace thp without taking hits.

I don't think I ever said this. I said it is an option as an alternative to Shield, but I never stated that is what would be desired or typical.

In 2024 Temp hit points don't run out until a long rest, so there is no need to "renew" them unless you get hit.

I think we play a full game session before advancing to level 2, to answer the question though.

I do not believe this is typical. There is actually a thread recently that talks about this and talks PCs advancing to second level for walking down the road in one of the WOTC adventures (SODQ I think). Now if he does not use his pact slot between the 1st and 2nd short rest and has lost some temp hit points, then yes he can and undountedly would do this.

I mentioned the shield spell only lasting one round repeatedly and pointed out that one spell slot can be spent on either shield or armor of agathys but not both.

Sure and 2nd Wind basically repairs 1 hit as well. This is fundamental to this discussion.

You wake up and have a hit point budget for the entire day.

The Dwarf Warlock with a 16 Con who just woke up and cast AOA has a budget of 17 hps+the hps the free shield spell saves
If he rests at all he has another 4-11 hps from his hid die and another shield spell for the first short rest + another sheild spell for every additional short rest.

The Tough Dwarf Fighter with a 16 Con who just woke up has a budget of 16hps+the hit points restored by 2 uses of 2nd Wind
He has another 4-13 on the first short rests and gets another 2nd wind if he both short rests and uses one of the uses between rests.

And you were already arguing thp from armor of agathys so that spell slot goes to armor of agathys.

Only on the very begining of the day. Wake up and cast AOA. Then you have those hit points until you either get hit or take your next long rest.

I clearly said multiple times the base intent would be to use shield. Obviously, Shield does not deflect every hit, and using a pact slot for the temp hps is an option, but generally a less effective one.

I don't think this character would be the most durable in every situation, but I think it would generally be the most durable.

Poisoned from the quasit is going to provide the same benefit as sap from weapon masteries so that's not an advantage

Scared from the quasit is a single target once per day with a 10 DC so might work 50% of the time on a goblin minion with the chance going down as WIS goes up or proficiency exists.

Sap not quite as good as poisoned affects all attacks, including AOOs, while SAP only affects the 1st attack, but it is pretty close

Scare is still 50% of the time, and EACH Quasit can do this once a day, so at 1st level, considering starting funds, you should generally be able to summon 2 Quasits or enough to do scare 2 times per day. As you pick up some more loot you should be able to easily push this higher.

Also, while scare is only 50% it can flat prevent a melee attack by preventing movment and it makes Ranged attacks happen with disadvantage.

Aside from this, if you are fighting enemies using ranged weapons the Quasit can move next to an enemy and ready another move to follow an enemy and stay next to him. This gives that enemy disadvantage on the attack, the PC does not need to use an action, the Quasit does not need to hit him and the bad guy does not need to fail a save or anything. It does not break invisibility and it is automatic disadvantage as long as the enemy can't outmove him. This makes it more effective in imposing disadvantage (in this situation) than Sap or Scare or Poisoned.

The possibility of not being approached by one target if the quasit is in the way when that target can still attack via ranged weapons doesn't make the warlock more durable.

I think it does in play. Cover makes all creatures who can get it more durable than not having it, the Walrock, just has

A +2 saving throw bonus against a DC 10 check is 35% chance to fail, about 1 in 3 as stated. The 13 or 14 to hit is 32.5% chance to hit, about 1 in 3 as stated. The actual hit rate is slightly more than 1 in 9 and the one free shield spell still leaves it at around 1 in 10 hits dropping blade ward.

Ok, to start with it is a +3 not a +2. It is not 1 in 10 hits that drops blade Ward, it is close to 1 in 3 hits.

Here is how I arrived at the 15-20 I said

Using Bladeward his AC is 17.5, with Shield that is 22.5. And yes, shield does matter because it is an effect that is at will until the first attack that would hit.

So it is going to take 3 attacks to get him to use just use his first shield spell of the entire day. One in nine after that first shield to get him to fail his concentration save. Now we are at 12 attacks ... but 12 attacks is more than he is likely to take before another short rest ... which means has another shield spell, and now we are at 15.

I think 15-20 attacks is how many attacks on average he is likely to suffer at most tables before he fails a concentration save.

Understand?

Side Note: Keep in mind, under the new 2024 definition of "damage" he does not have to make a concentration save unless he "loses hit points" and temporary hit points are "not hit points". So anything that only depletes temp hit points does not cause a concentration save in 2024. This is not considered in what I wrote above.

The XP budget for a 1st level character in an easy encounter is 50 xp.

12 Goblins is enough for a PC to get to 2nd level.

There are plenty of encounters for 1st level characters where many attacks would be expected. Not getting attacked for whatever reason isn't a demonstration of durability.

Playing a PC whos build enables them to not get attacked as often is part of durability


If the question is who can take the most damage at 1st level it is entirely different discussion.

Based on what?

Based on the fact they will typically get attacked more often and have a lower AC vs the first attack that would hit.

Where did false life come into this? Armor of agathys is only 5 hp and false life isn't on the warlock spell list.

I meant to say Armor of Agathys

You were arguing that the number of attacks don't exist so how does this play out? Is your argument that the warlock casts shield, then the fight ends quickly with the warlock never taking damage, then everyone takes a short rest so the shield spell is available?

This would allow shield more often but that removes the 5 thp in the process.

No it doesn't. In the 2024 rules Temp Hit Points last until they are "depleted or you finish a long rest. "

If you do not play that way, and use the old 2014 rules, then you would be correct, but that is not RAW for 2024 and would entirely change this discussion. I would not advocate for a Warlock as being the most durable if the temp hit points were removed on a before taking a long rest.

Are you implying I cannot make a ranged fighter?

No you can, and I discussed this above.

A ranged fighter either needs to use lighter armor, resulting in a lower AC or they need to me much closer to melee which will result in them getting attacked more.

A ranged Fighter that want's to use SAP needs to attack from within 20 feet of the enemy or suffer disadvantage.

Shield isn't guaranteed to prevent that one hit, and a fighter can pick that up too.

At 1st level a Fighter can only do it once. Even at one single casting though, I think it is competitive with Tough.

You don't think a dwarf fighter with the magic initiate feat with the higher AC, blade ward, the shield spell, and second wind is more durable? The fighter can even keep blade ward up more consistently because they have CON save proficiency.

No, I don't think they are, because they don't get more castings of Shield with each short rest, don't have a familiar and have fewer total effective hit points when considering Armor of Agathys.

I do think they are more durable than the same fighter with Tough though.

 

[Horwath]

Interesting to see Barbarian overtaking Fighter in the polls.

The primary reason I picked fighter over barbarian was that a barbarian may takes hits on round 1 before he can rage.

The distant secondary consideration was that the fighter can extend the adventuring day better with his healing from 2nd wind.

I don’t fault anyone for picking barbarian though. He has some of his own perks.

if it's through the day with healing, then probably paladin is best.
with 2×cure wounds for 2d8+3 and 5 pts of LoH that you can use to top of if needed, fighter would need 4×second wind to catch up to that.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's a tough call, but I think I would say fighter.

Two 1d10+1 healing surges per short rest plus theoretical 19 AC (chain, shield, defensive fighting style) can be massive. With a 14 Con and two short rests, that can get us 12+(1d10+2) (regular HD spending during rests) + 4x(1d10+1) = 45.5 hp.

Paladin with 13+ str, 14 Con, and 16 Cha edges them out by a point with 46.5, but no fighting style until level 2 keeps their potential AC down a point. That, plus it's significantly more likely that you won't have both a 16 Cha and a 14 Con, since you probably want to get that Str up at 16-17, and it's a lot easier to get that to work with at least one of those other two a bit lower.

A raging barbarian can double their hp, which are 14+(1d12+2) =22.5 (so doubles to 45 even), so almost the same, but their AC is very likely to be lower (whether using unarmored defense or armor) and any hit before they rage eats into it.

Cleric that heals themself gets close, but not there, plus similar to paladin has a harder time getting a 14 con and a decent wisdom along with the Str necessary for optimal level 1 AC (I am treating wearing armor without the requisite strength as violating 'decent offensive output,' as never getting to the fight is generally a way not to contribute to it).

Smart clerics have 14 dexterity abd medium armor. Weapons are really level 1-4.

You give up 1 point of AC but reduce MAD, use a finesse weapon, etter skills, initiative etc.