D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Gorg]

Not for nothing, but my first impression upon reading the OP, was: you ARE familiar with the internet, and what folks do there, right? lol.

But, yeah- the constant kvetching about this or that gets old. As a recovering message board junkie, I know it all too well, lol. Been like that since the 90's, when I got my first computer and internet.

but hey- at least it's something different from the usual "IT'S A ROLE playing game, not a roll playing game you stupid munchkins!!!" that plagued D&D boards since forever, lol. The edition wars will never cease, as long as someone keeps pumping out new ones.

Personally, I can find something to like with all the editions I have- which is everything thru 3.5, then 2014 5E. And then there are the 3rd party games. "OUCH!!!! my WALLET!!" As well as things I don't. 2014 and, now C&C come closest to scratching the right itch. LOVED the feel, the lore, and the excitement of the TSR era stuff, then jumped onto 3e with both feet. 2014 was sort of the ideal mix of OG and newer mechanics, without so much crunch and powergamey stuff. Powerful characters with interesting abilities baked right in, yes- a system based on "builds", and the arms race that kicks off? not so much. As the guy who always ended up playing the Cleric- the newer versions were like Halleluia!!!!!

Until they began adding it back in...

I was already in the nah- not for me camp, when 2024 was announced. Still too new to og 2014 to even consider moving on! The extra "baggage" that came along for the ride, was just an eye roll for me.

 

[Velderan]

But it wasn’t presented that way. The rules in UA showed up in modules, for example. Non-weapon proficiencies from Oriental Adventures and classes from UA both appear in Isle of the Ape.

We may have treated the Complete 2e books as optional but that is not how they were presented.

The words Core don’t appear in DnD until 3e.

Were there any other products that referenced rules in any of the Complete books? It’s been a long time, but my memory was my group picking through some of the books to use some optional rules and everything outside of the PHB, DMG, and MM were optional. The Complete handbooks, the Tome of Magic, the Player’s Option books and so on were all things to cherry pick from for whoever was DMing at the time.

 

[Gorg]

Meatgrinder-style sounds a lot like the D&D version of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.
"I remember back in the day when you were lucky to make it to 2nd level."
"2nd level? Our DM used to kill us in the first dungeon."
"You made it through a dungeon? We used to die on the first dungeon level."
"A whole dungeon level? We used to die in the first room!"
"Well, when I say dungeon level, I mean the stairs into the dungeon."
"You guys got to the dungeon?"
"Ah, kids these days, they don't know how good they have it."

I see you've played in a "Bill" dungeon before, lol. Seriously, he was so evil, when it was my turn to DM, he was utterly paranoid- sure I'd take the opportunity to get some payback. I didn't, but it was sure fun to watch!

TBF, in the 3e game I'm running now, half the party got dropped on the way TO the dungeon by a wandering pair of Twig Blights, for pete's sake. THEN 3 skeletons tore them up so bad in the second room, they had to go back to town- and hire an actual fighter! seems that first level barbarians eat way too much damage to be the only martial... And this is The Sunless Citadel.

A group of level 4's got TPK'd in Lost Mine of Phandelver- by a group of orcs and an ogre. They lost the opportunity to get a surprise round, and rolled like butt thereafter... So, newer adventures aren't always the cakewalks us old farts like to claim they are.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Some games never change, or change so slowly it's nearly un-noticable. When's the last time chess saw a major rules revision? Or Monopoly?

And, not all gatekeeping is bad.

Ever checked out the Monopoly expansion packs??

https://shop.hasbro.com/en-us/monopoly/expansion

Or my attempt to discuss who shouldn't play D&D??

D&D General Thread 'Who shouldn't play D&D'

Aug 9, 2024

If D&D can't be all things to all people, then that means some people are better off not playing D&D.
This thread seeks to identify people who shouldn't play D&D.
If you believe that D&D should be for everyone, I already have a thread for that. You can go check it out!

D&D General - Making sure everyone can play D&D

This is a thread dedicated to making sure everyone can play D&D. Here we can brainstorm how to remove barriers or other factors that prevent people from playing D&D. How can support people so that they can join the D&D world?

www.enworld.org

Should people without required skills play D&D? What are the required skills?

Which preferences does D&D not cater to? Like if you want X out of TTRPGs, don't play D&D and go play some other game instead??

Anything else that would make...

• MichaelSomething
• Replies: 136
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

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[Thagdal]

Which became its own issue because a lot of 1e players just took 2e compatible stuff and back ported it to 1e. Which is why most OS memories are a jumbled mess of 1e, 2e, Basic and house rules held together with duct tape and gentleman's agreements.

AKA my current couple of games.

 

[Thagdal]

I had a different experience here. At least by 2E. In all the groups I played 2e with pretty much everyone I knew treated NWPs and the Complete books as optional (and everything tagged optional was up to the GM so it wasn't rare for a GM to okay some things from a complete book and not others). Also most 2E modules I ran didn't assume NWPs. At least for Ravenloft which is what I primarily ran (most modules I remember didn't use them and things like Domains of Dread and the Black box didn't give major NPCs NWP entries). But with 3E the mood was entirely different in that respect.

This was my experience too.
Most games freely used bits of UA and the others like they used dragon magazine content. Used what they wanted into their game with DM oversight, laughed at other bits for being crap, over powered. or just pointless.

 

[James Gasik]

Were there any other products that referenced rules in any of the Complete books? It’s been a long time, but my memory was my group picking through some of the books to use some optional rules and everything outside of the PHB, DMG, and MM were optional. The Complete handbooks, the Tome of Magic, the Player’s Option books and so on were all thing to cherry pick from for whoever was DMing at the time.

Dark Sun requires Complete Psionics.

The idea of Kits seemed to go from "optional" to just a fact of life by a certain point. Heck, NWP's are optional in the PHB, but just about every supplement introduced new ones!

At least in the groups I played in, most supplements were considered perfectly legal for use. I once played a Gladiator (the class, not the kit) in a non-Dark Sun game, as well as a Dualist Wizard (from Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves). I've also played Wild Mages (at least until the other players told me to stop), though the Tome of Magic is considered by some to be a "core" rulebook (whatever that means). Heck, even 1e stuff was perfectly acceptable, such as Dragon magazine classes, and there was at least one Kensai character I played with from OA!

Strangely, the black "x Option" books were the first time I remember ever seeing a DM come down and say "absolutely not" when it came to 2e products. Which in retrospect, seems odd when my group at the time had an Aasimar Ranger/Mage, a Dwarven Fighter/Psion, my Gnome Fighter/Priest of Flandal Steelskin, and a Half-Dragon Druid of Rhiannon (both culled from Dragon magazine articles)!

 

[Hussar]

I had a different experience here. At least by 2E. In all the groups I played 2e with pretty much everyone I knew treated NWPs and the Complete books as optional (and everything tagged optional was up to the GM so it wasn't rare for a GM to okay some things from a complete book and not others). Also most 2E modules I ran didn't assume NWPs. At least for Ravenloft which is what I primarily ran (most modules I remember didn't use them and things like Domains of Dread and the Black box didn't give major NPCs NWP entries). But with 3E the mood was entirely different in that respect.

How you treated them and how they were presented are not the same thing.

After all, try arguing that Planescape is just “optional” and doesn’t count and see how far you get.

 

[Hussar]

Wrong. Some gamers may have treated them as non-optional, but they were optional

First, the 2e PHB there was sidebar stating that the Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin (along with Priests of Specific Mythoi and Wizard subclasses) were optional. So, by extension, the Complete Books for the Bard, Druid, Ranger, and Paladin would be optional since those classes themselves were optional.

More importantly, my copy of the Thief's Handbook states "The new rules and procedures only become official in campaign where the DM so declares" and the the player should ask their DM to use anything from the book and the DM has the final word. So clearly it is optional and I recall similar statements about them being optional in Complete Fighter's Handbook, Complete Priest's Handbook, and the other Complete class handbooks that my friends and I own/owned.

IOW, there was no such thing as core. Just a collection of optional rules.

Which is what I said.

 

[Hussar]

This was my experience too.
Most games freely used bits of UA and the others like they used dragon magazine content. Used what they wanted into their game with DM oversight, laughed at other bits for being crap, over powered. or just pointless.

I would point out that my experience was the same. But that doesn’t change the fact that the idea of “core” rules was a 3e marketing term to denote that the phb, mm and DMG were needed to play.