D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Misanthrope Prime]

I've been playing D&D for two decades, 5e for half that time. I've played a lot of wizards and a lot of spellcasters in that time, to the point where I feel I have a good handle on mechanically how fun it is to "cast a spell."

The problem is that 5e wizards, especially 5e wizards under 2024 rules, don't really have much interesting to the class other than their spell list, but other spellcasters and their subclasses tend to have more identity than that. Even grouping clerics under domains rather than the wizard spell schools gives more unique character concepts.

WotC has failed to innovate with the wizard class and keep it fresh. For some reason or another, every time they get a good idea for caster gameplay, they end up giving it to a different caster, perhaps because of the perception that the wizard has nigh-limitless power and versatility so it doesn't "need" any more help.

 

[Mistwell]

Wizards are strong because 1) rituals, 2) flexibility, 3) the best high level spells, 4) every single published adventure has a ton of spells they can copy into their spellbooks.

Fireball? Wizards tend to be at their best with control spells.

 

[Mistwell]

Are you picking the rituals from your very few spells you pick as you level up?

You get a ton of spells. Every 2024 subclass automatically gives you additional ones with the Savant ability (two spells from your school, and whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots an addition one from your school.)

VERY quickly you have way more spells than you can cast and plenty of room for rituals, and that's before you copy any spells into your spellbook from scrolls and captured spellbooks.

Its also DM dependent. Do they sell you extra rituals? Also most rituals spells don't really matter.

Most games ive see you will get sone rituals but it takes time and money. Eventually you'll know more but that takes time.

Which leans into main point the wizards a sw burn last.

At vest you need a DM that says yes to everything, you're somewhere you can buy the rituals and you have enough money.

The rituals are also exploration pillar. Often neglected. Niche and situational imho. Fireball at least is situational.

None of this tracks with 2024. None. Treantmonk lays out the spell progression, and in early levels all 2024 wizards have more spells in their book than slots they could cast them with. You will have many, many rituals in your spellbook.

It sounds like you have not played with a 2024 wizard?

 

[Zardnaar]

Wizards are strong because 1) rituals, 2) flexibility, 3) the best high level spells, 4) every single published adventure has a ton of spells they can copy into their spellbooks.

Fireball? Wizards tend to be at their best with control spells.

Who cares about high level spelks. Its my main point Wizards take to long to get good.

WotC own numbers. 70% of games are 1-7, 10% hit level 10.

I rate level 1-6 way higher than 10+. Level 10 is way to ling to wait. Level 3 or 6 at the latest imho.

 

[Zardnaar]

You get a ton of spells. Every 2024 subclass automatically gives you additional ones with the Savant ability (two spells from your school, and whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots an addition one from your school.)

VERY quickly you have way more spells than you can cast and plenty of room for rituals, and that's before you copy any spells into your spellbook from scrolls and captured spellbooks.


None of this tracks with 2024. None. Treantmonk lays out the spell progression, and in early levels all 2024 wizards have more spells in their book than slots they could cast them with. You will have many, many rituals in your spellbook.

It sounds like you have not played with a 2024 wizard?

They may get more spells but they don't get very many spells slots.

Rituals lean heavily towards exploration pillar.

You know the pillar most people neglect or don't care about.

 

[Mistwell]

Who cares about high level spelks.

The millions of people who have played high level games. By now I am shocked you have not been. Come on man, you've played 5e long enough that high level should be a meaningful part of your game by now.

 

[ECMO3]

It is kinda funny seeing the narrative pushed along the lines that wizards are OP.

Im seeing the great wizard extinction event. The last one rolled up was 2019. That was mostly due to 3rd party material being used.

I've mentioned the comparative nerfing of fireball as a classic example. Relative to older editions you're throwing a 2d6 or 3d6 fireball in effect due to hit point inflation. Its competing with other classes who can cast it and things like spirit guardians which tend to out perform it. Even my newbie players are figuring it out (light cleric casting spirit guardians instead). I would also argue the 5E meta of hit point inflation and weak saves on monsters has an influence. The holy trinity of hypnotic pattern, slow and fear are also great control spells.

Its expanded spel list for the most part doesn't matter due to spell slots. The wizard only technically gets more spells via arcane recovery. That's ability is to weak espically lower level.

The big problem for them is power creep on the other classes espicially at levels that matter. Those levels mostly being 1-7. The wizards big problem being a lot of its "keystone" abilities essentially being level 10. Much like the artificer you're waiting to long to get good. The 5.0 enchanter is a great example. Awesome level 10 ability, mediocre 2 and 6. New wizards 3 subclasses barely got changed from 5.0 to 5.5. Illusionits is the only one comparable to the new playtest ones.

Some more specific examples. Sorcerer says hi. Every sorcerer gets metamagic. Twin spell is very cheap to cast. At level 3, 5, 7 etc you get a new spell level to play with. Theres generally a single target upcastable ball breaking spell available. Command, hold person, tashas mind whip, Banishment, hold monster. A single sorcerer point can twin them. This single ability dumps all over arcane recovery. This is only 1 trick sorcerers get. Playtest enchantress and transmuted gets a similar twin ability at level 6 based off Enchanter 10 ability from 5.0. That ability is still weaker than twin spell just saying.

Warlocks. This class is stupidly front loaded. A level 2 warlock can have 3 invocations. They can pick all 3 magic initiate origin feats. This gives them 3 free castings spells at level 2, adds those spells to their spell list and they still get 2 more spells per short rest vs the wizards 3 level 1 spells and a single use arcane recovery. Level 1 spells worth upcasting you have reat selections such as command, tashas hideous laughter, Chromatic Orb, bless, and druid spells. And potentially 6 cantrips. Guidance......

Clerics. While your low level wizard is sucking being a low level wizard you get better weapons and armor. Channel divinity and more class abilities. Light Clerics comparatively absurd resource wise with radiance of the dawn essentially being a level 2 spell arguably scaling to 3rd level later in your career. Not many level 2 and 3 wizard (5.0 or 5.5) abilities are that good comparatively. They're also going up against maximized call shatters or free spiritual weapon or +2 AC concentration free in 5.5.

Druids. Druids would never be front loaded either. With true strike, shillagh being easily available and spels like conjure Animals being available. New wildshape options are more resources generally. Free guiding bolts, moon Druids beating you up, wrath of the sea+emanating etc.

Bards. Well you're a bard. Level 5 your bard dice refresh on short rest. Smaller spell list but they're ones wizards should be focusing on. Bard subclasses area lot better than Wizard ones.

The recurring theme here is almost every other spell caster in effect has more resources than you level 1-4. Level 5 they all get level 3 spells. Wizard has best spell list but only technically more spells via arcane recovery. That's more of a theoretical technically correct situation. Each class tends to have A and S tier spells at levels that matter. If your spell list is lacking at certain levels upcast them. In effect the wizards versatility is vastly over rated at least until the later levels (10+). That's to late imho I barely care about those levels theyre mostly theoretical. Our games level 12 atm and that's already higher than most groups achieve and its taken a year to get there.

I'll mention Baldurs Gate 3. On various tier lists the wizard tends to get rated as B tier. On par with the Druid. Paladins, Bards, Fighters and Sorcerers tend to be a head of them. Just thought I would mention it. Better than the rogue at least. In our recent game Fighter essentially Karlach soloed Gortash. Just saying.

WotC even realizes how bad wizards have become with the new playtest ones plus illusionists vs older designs of the diviner, invoker and abjurer. Casuals over the last decade lean heavily towards the charisma classes generally Sorcerer and Warlock. Powergamers those two classes plus Fighter, Paladins and Clerics.

On the plus side the wizards not an Artificer, Ranger or Rogue. Even the Ranger looks more appealing tbh and you can MC out after 5th level. Its not bad as such I regard it as a B tier class now. Invoker is a B tier subclass its the newb tube (Call of Duty 4 reference) equivalent. Learn to shoot. Diviners to limited and rng based, illusionist is he best one followed by Abjurer. Its just been power crept out by other classes and 5E meta penalized its traditional artillery role (outclassed by warlocks and Sorcerers there as well).

I think the Wizard is pretty powerful. If you ranked all the classes from 1-13 at every single level from 1-20 I think the Wizard would have the best average ranking, while probably never being the most powerful class at any given level.

That said, being powerful does not make people want to play a class. In the games I play we do not see very many Wizards. They are ahead of Artificers and probably about tied with Sorcerers and then are behind every other class.

I think a lot of people on this thread are overvaluing ritual spells. They are nice and Wizards have the best ritual mechanics of any full caster, (I think Eldritch Knights are the better ritual casters in play though). The reason ritual spells are rituals though is they are not very powerful. They are niche and situational and when that situation comes up they are nice to have, but a wizard can go from 1-20 without ever casting some of their rituals.

 

[Mistwell]

They may get more spells but they don't get very many spells slots.

Rituals lean heavily towards exploration pillar.

You know the pillar most people neglect or don't care about.

People care a lot about it. It's a pretty common topic here. And yes, they get the same spell slots as other classes, but have a ton to cast outside of combat which doesn't cost a spell slot. Find Familiar, Identify, Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, Divination, Augury, Telepathic Bond, Detect Magic, Contact Other Plane,. you're going to want these spells in your group. Wizards cast them all for free.

 

[Seramus]

Its a common complaint here. I own a lot of the 5E adventures and exploration is minimal there.
Social pillar isn't neglected as much and its why I rate the charisma classes higher.
Combat pillars more objective. This spell dioe xyz this class ability ABC. Easier to rate than more subjective things like social and exploration.

I go the other way. I value abilities/utility in the exploration and social pillars quite a bit because you usually win combat. You don't always win combat, and sometimes a few DPR might mean the difference between life and death for a PC, but 5E is built around the idea that you are going to win almost all your fights. The attrition model practically guarantees only the last 1-2 fights in a day are going to present a serious threat.

So, the combat pillar IS more objective to judge. And it IS fun to math out how one ability can eek out a few more DPR than another. But in my book, doing an extra 10 damage is worth much less than being able to find the safest path through a dungeon or being able to sweet talk a king.

To be clear, nobody should be a slouch at combat. Everyone should be able to meaningfully contribute towards the goal of beating monsters, and combat specialists DO ease the burden so other characters can focus on other things. There is value there. But the diminishing returns on squeezing out just a few more points of damage get huge very quickly.

 

[Zardnaar]

The millions of people who have played high level games. By now I am shocked you have not been. Come on man, you've played 5e long enough that high level should be a meaningful part of your game by now.

High level games are 1% of games WotC numbers.

I tend to go to level 9-12. Current ones might hit 13 but there's 3 or 4 sessions left.

That's higher than most games according to WotC, all games locally and most games here at ENworld it seems.