D&D 5E (2024) Skeleton Familiar plus Net = Fisher of Men

[ECMO3]

would a familiar that has been affected by the warlock invocation investment of the chain master use the specific rule of "Your Save DC. If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC." to override the net save DC with your spell save DC while attacking with a net? it seems RAW at least.

RAW a Skeleton can take the attack action, so it can throw a net.

The save is debatable, but I don't think so. A net is adventuring gear with its own save (based on the thrower's dexterity). I think this would be like using your save DC if it dropped caltrops or used a wand or pushed it into a spirit guardians cast by someone else.

 

[Gorck]

RAW a Skeleton can take the attack action, so it can throw a net.

The save is debatable, but I don't think so. A net is adventuring gear with its own save (based on the thrower's dexterity). I think this would be like using your save DC if it dropped caltrops or used a wand or pushed it into a spirit guardians cast by someone else.

I agree about the save. Specific beats general, and in this case, the net is listed with a specific DC.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

I agree about the save. Specific beats general, and in this case, the net is listed with a specific DC.

The general rule when using a net is the listed DC. The specific one when used by the skeleton familiar is the warlock's DC.

 

[BigMac75]

FWIW - Grim Hollow has a Gladiator Net that is an actual weapon and does some damage.

Also there is a Flame Tongue version of it...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The general rule when using a net is the listed DC. The specific one when used by the skeleton familiar is the warlock's DC.

They are both specific rules. There is no general rule for that situation.

 

[Gorck]

The general rule when using a net is the listed DC. The specific one when used by the skeleton familiar is the warlock's DC.

I would consider it the opposite. The Warlock’s save DC is general because it is for ANY saving throw the familiar forces. The net, OTOH, has a DC that is specific to using that particular item.

 

[abolitionrpg]

I would consider it the opposite. The Warlock’s save DC is general because it is for ANY saving throw the familiar forces. The net, OTOH, has a DC that is specific to using that particular item.

by that logic specific familiars have specific DCs attached to their attacks... i am not sure why you would consider a warlock invocation to be the general rule, it is by its very nature specific to warlocks and even more so specific to a player selected invocation, and even more specific as this invocation requires a specific qualification of another invocation. generally, anyone can use a net and apply the DC that is generally used when one uses a net.

 

[ECMO3]

by that logic specific familiars have specific DCs attached to their attacks... i am not sure why you would consider a warlock invocation to be the general rule, it is by its very nature specific to warlocks and even more so specific to a player selected invocation, and even more specific as this invocation requires a specific qualification of another invocation. generally, anyone can use a net and apply the DC that is generally used when one uses a net.

In terms of specificity, while it is debatable, I tend to agree with the others that the net is more specific in this instance.

Familiars typically do not have DCs associated with their attacks in 5.5. DCs in terms of statblocks are usually reserved for creature-specific actions that are not attacks.

The net on the other hand is an attack (in that you replace the attack action to use it). A net in this fashion applies a DC to an attack and that is specific and generally an anomaly in 5.5E with the other exception being an unarmed strike, which is also a very specific attack.

I also think when the Invocation states "if the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw" it means specifically things the familiar can force - Scare on a Quasit, Sting on a Pseudragon, Heartsight on a sprite. I don't think it means any general save as a result of the environment that are not "forced" by an ability of the familiar.

Further if we are to take this to its limit then a familiar that made an unarmed strike would use the Warlock spell save DC for a push or shove, or a familiar that used a wand or threw caltrops would use the Warlock spell save DC. If the familiar pushed an enemy into your Cleric's Spirit Guardians it would use the Warlock DC instead of the Cleric DC. Likewise if a familiar used deception to cause an enemy to walk into weak floor plank which collapsed you would use the warlocks DC instead of the DC for the weakened floor. I don't think these things constitute a familiar "forcing" a save, I think they are the object or other environmental effect forcing the save.

 

[abolitionrpg]

In terms of specificity, while it is debatable, I tend to agree with the others that the net is more specific in this instance.

Familiars typically do not have DCs associated with their attacks in 5.5. DCs in terms of statblocks are usually reserved for creature-specific actions that are not attacks.

The net on the other hand is an attack (in that you replace the attack action to use it). A net in this fashion applies a DC to an attack and that is specific and generally an anomaly in 5.5E with the other exception being an unarmed strike, which is also a very specific attack.

I also think when the Invocation states "if the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw" it means specifically things the familiar can force - Scare on a Quasit, Sting on a Pseudragon, Heartsight on a sprite. I don't think it means any general save as a result of the environment that are not "forced" by an ability of the familiar.

Further if we are to take this to its limit then a familiar that made an unarmed strike would use the Warlock spell save DC for a push or shove, or a familiar that used a wand or threw caltrops would use the Warlock spell save DC. If the familiar pushed an enemy into your Cleric's Spirit Guardians it would use the Warlock DC instead of the Cleric DC. Likewise if a familiar used deception to cause an enemy to walk into weak floor plank which collapsed you would use the warlocks DC instead of the DC for the weakened floor. I don't think these things constitute a familiar "forcing" a save, I think they are the object or other environmental effect forcing the save.

sorry - i do obviously disagree with you - but also there are a lot of inconsistencies with what you are arguing:

1. i may need some clarification on what "familiars typically do"–find familiar is a specific rule that creates a 0 CR beast that cannot attack (specifically note, "cannot attack" and not "cannot take the attack action" which are two different things). example every single familiar (which is still a CR 0 beast) can grapple (pending size of the target), which would be a general rule: grappling.

2. the net on the other hand is NOT an attack. it has a specific rule that you "can" use it as a part of the attack action, but it most certainly is not an attack (or a weapon for that matter), by RAW. furthermore, an attack requires an attack roll (not a saving throw) and no where in the net description do you make an attack roll. it is not an attack and just because you use something through an attack action does not make it an attack.

3. the invocation does specifically state "If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC" and nowhere in that sentence does it specifically say "except when using and item" or "except when grappling" or "except when doing X"–nor does it say "If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw using one of its actions"–i am not sure what you are emphasizing with force, if the familiar's action requires that another creature make a saving throw, how is it not forced?

4. a lot here, will try to tease out:
4a. yes, use warlock save DC to shove a creature up to 1 size category larger than the familiar, there is no mechanic for push, not sure what that is.
4b. yes, use warlock save DC for caltrops (exactly the same as a net)... although this one could be argued as the caltrops stand alone after use. the familiar is not force a save, a creature would have to walk into the area. i suppose this one is an actual grey area, and a fair point.
4c. spirit guardians specifically uses the cleric DC and is not an effect forced by the familiar (is this up for debate?)
4d. using an opposed skill check is not forcing a saving throw (is this up for debate?)

 

[ECMO3]

sorry - i do obviously disagree with you - but also there are a lot of inconsistencies with what you are arguing:

1. i may need some clarification on what "familiars typically do"–find familiar is a specific rule that creates a 0 CR beast that cannot attack (specifically note, "cannot attack" and not "cannot take the attack action" which are two different things). example every single familiar (which is still a CR 0 beast) can grapple (pending size of the target), which would be a general rule: grappling.

This was a reply to you. You stated "familiars have specific DCs attached to their attacks." That statement is false. Further this thread is about familiars on a Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master which can both attack AND take the attack action per the specific rules of that Invocation.

Grappling is an unarmed strike which is an "attack" because the PHB says it is: "In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you." and it does not have a DC specific to a familiar, but rather uses a general rule for DC.

There are no specific attacks I know of for familiars that have a DC. This is certainly true for the Warlock-specific familiars, including the Skeleton this thread is based on. I believe it is true for ALL potential familiars in 5.5E. I could be wrong, you can scour the 5.5 monster manual to see if there is a CR 0 beast that has a DC on an attack, but I don't think there is.

The things familiars do that have specific DCs are not attacks. I named some of them - Heartsight, Sting and Scare from Sprite, Pseudodragon and Quasit respectively. If you look at 0 CR beasts you can add mimicry from the Raven. Those are the things with DCs that "familiars typically do" and they are all of the save DCs specific to a familiar that I know of.

3. the invocation does specifically state "If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw, it uses your spell save DC" and nowhere in that sentence does it specifically say "except when using and item" or "except when grappling" or "except when doing X"–nor does it say "If the familiar forces a creature to make a saving throw using one of its actions"–i am not sure what you are emphasizing with force, if the familiar's action requires that another creature make a saving throw, how is it not forced?

It does not say "any DC that results from the familiar's action" it says "any DC forced by the familiar" ... which to me means one of the familiars specific abilities or actions.

The net is forcing it not the familiar. Same thing if the familiar shoves an enemy into spirit guardians - it is the cleric's save DC, not the warlocks save. Same if it uses a wand on an enemy, it is the wand DC, same if he shoves him into Lava and he and he has to save to determine how much he gets burned These things are all "forced" by the item or environment, not by the familiar.

4a. yes, use warlock save DC to shove a creature up to 1 size category larger than the familiar, there is no mechanic for push, not sure what that is.

From the PHB, note the underlined and bolded:

Shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.

4c. spirit guardians specifically uses the cleric DC and is not an effect forced by the familiar (is this up for debate?)

Why would it when the Familiar is "forcing" the save by your definition?

I don't think it is up for debate, but it happening because the skeleton pushed the bad guy into the spirit guardians. So either the Skeleton forced it it or the Spirit guardians forced it and the same logic would apply if it threw a net.

4d. using an opposed skill check is not forcing a saving throw (is this up for debate?)

Not a skill check a DC - for example from Saltmarsh the Crumbling Bedroom: Falling Through the Floor. The tracks left on the floor by the smugglers represent the only safe places to walk in the room. Each time a Medium or larger creature moves off this safe trail into the shaded area on the map, it must succeed on a DC 12 Dexterity saving throw or fall 10 feet through the floor, landing in area 6.

So skeleton pushes creature on to the floor do they make a Warlock save DC or a DC 12 Dexterity saving throw?