Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Have you tried reskinning the Sun Soul Monks from SCAG ... asking for a friend.
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D&D 5E [Poll] Paladin Satisfaction Survey
- Thread starter Sacrosanct
- Start date
Have you tried reskinning the Sun Soul Monks from SCAG ... asking for a friend.
Xeviat
Hero
I haven't seen Paladins played above 6th level, but how would they be weak at 11th? Improved Smite is as good as, if not better than, a 3rd attack as long as you aren't using a gigantic weapon (and I really like my paladins to have shields). If the concern is there, maybe Improved smite could add the weapon's damage dice in radiant damage instead?
They're not.
I think Hemlock probably means they're less interesting past level 11, which is true since most of their abilities cap out. They're far from weak however, especially given how important maintaining their d10 HD is as AC becomes less relevant. Say compared to a Paladin/Sorcerer.
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
The concept you describe matches my mental picture of a divine smite as well.
I'm willing to accept this as paladins have limited resources and they balanced the damage against not being wasted. If they balanced against an average hit they would probably have had to boost the damage as well as providing a to-hit bonus to have the same expected damage after miss chance. But with two variables it would be more fragile, more likely thrown off by something like Bless or even the Oath of Vengeance. So I accept it as is. I just roll then dice and then narrate if I did the glowly divine lift first.
Gladius Legis
Legend
If we do have to change how Divine Smite works, I'd prefer to make it work like Reliable powers in 4e. Declare the Smite before the attack, but if you miss you do not expend a spell slot. The only practical nerf effect in that case is that you can't save all your slots for Smiting on crits ... which is kind of an overrated thing to do, anyway.
I'd apply the same sort of change to the Battle Master maneuvers and Superiority Dice use, too, by the way.
I'd apply the same sort of change to the Battle Master maneuvers and Superiority Dice use, too, by the way.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
[I initially replied to DaveDash here, but I'm deleting that post because it doesn't lead anywhere worthwhile. Since you can't delete posts on Enworld, I will instead offer this funny. -Hemlock]
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
A third attack can benefit from being a big weapon (lance or greatsword), being a magic weapon, being used on a maneuver (disarm/grapple/shove), fighting styles (dueling, GWF), being used with a ranged weapon, static bonuses from feats (GWM, Sharpshooter), or spells (Hunter's Mark, Magic Weapon, Hex).
It's also competing with a whole range of spells and cantrips that give even Sharpshooter and GWMs a run for their money. Without a third attack from *some* source (Polearm Master for example), the paladin's at-will damage can't hope to keep up with e.g. a paladin/warlock's Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast (blowing enemies off cliffs, through walls of fire, etc.), and if your at-will damage can't keep up then you are useful (in a relative comparison) only as long as your nova holds out, i.e. for a few rounds a day.
You're also competing with opportunity costs like Paladin 9/Sorc with Extended Spell to become the world's third-greatest healer, pick up Counterspell and Quickened Fireball and Enhance Ability, and increase your spell slot pool for smiting when needed. It's not always about single target damage, but overall pure paladins just don't have a lot to recommend them over the alternatives.
(In a game without feats and multiclassing, this analysis would change, because those alternatives would not exist.)
One way to fix paladins would be to give them a really good capstone. E.g. take the existing capstone and make it at-will instead of one minute a day.
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I will say that the Paladin as written allowed one of the most entertaining characters of my group's first 3 years, a half-gnoll Paladin of Heironeous with an 8 Charisma. Using spell slots for smite allowed him to stay more relevant in combat. In the later levels he was able to cast some DC based spells as his maxed out proficiency overcame his -1 Charisma modifier, but Divine Smite and spells that did not have a DC or attack roll went a long way to making his build be effective.
Paladin is definitely on of the ones they got more right than not, and I only have a few complaints about it, namely that you can't smite with ranged weapons and that I don't much care for declaring smite after you hit. Other than that they pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one, and all the upcoming UA options sans the abysmal pacifist paladin look pretty sweet too, so I'm optimistic.
Also glad that they're probably going to be releasing evil-compatible paths if the UAs are any indication, as it has always driven me up the wall that evil gods still have chosen divine fighters but they can't be called paladins because reasons. This has also lead to reprints of essentially the same class with minor tweaks, which is something the subclass system is fairly well equipped to address.
Also glad that they're probably going to be releasing evil-compatible paths if the UAs are any indication, as it has always driven me up the wall that evil gods still have chosen divine fighters but they can't be called paladins because reasons. This has also lead to reprints of essentially the same class with minor tweaks, which is something the subclass system is fairly well equipped to address.
