D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Gothic Lineages & New Race/Culture Distinction

Flamestrike · Jan 27, 2021

Hurin88 said:
The assumption is not that 'Minotaurs are always stronger'. It is that Minotaurs are stronger on average.

And that assumption (minotaurs are on average stronger than elves) does not go away, simply because 1 Elf (the PC) out of millions just happens to be as strong as the strongest minotaur.

Laurefindel · Jan 27, 2021

TwoSix said:
I think a major difference of opinion in these discussions is whether you think that not having these references embedded within the rules will cause the references to break down over time. Basically, why would people form an image of an agile, slender elf if the rules don't reinforce it?

My gut feeling is that the tropes are embedded enough within other media to be resistant to change, but I can see why there's some legitimate disagreement there.

I think it needs to be reinforced somehow, but I also think that the game is flexible and powerful enough to come with other ways to define "agile and slender" (mechanically) than "+2 Dex". Only, that's how the game (mostly) defines it now, so in many cases losing an exclusive +2 Dex is losing the only reference to "this is an agile and slender race".

Scribe · Jan 27, 2021

Umbran said:
I can't find myself overly concerned that they don't specifically document old stat bonuses in future materials. Design changes over time. I mean, they don't say, "If you want, you can play a Fighting Man instead of a Fighter..." Or, "If you want, you can make all damage 1d6..."

No, and on a glance as I've mentioned, this is not the end of the world.

It's simply not a direction, which will continue, that I want the game to take.

I'll make my own system, or use one of the others which maintain a connection to race impacting ASI, and move on after making my wishes known in the survey.

We all know why it's being done, so, whatever. Appreciate the discussion but I don't think there's much more I can say.

BookTenTiger · Jan 27, 2021

Laurefindel said:
Neither do I.

There can so many more interesting ways on saying "very strong" than +2 STR. Advantage, rerolls, exceptions, and various other mechanics benefits can be a lot more evocative than a +1 bonus on a roll if, for example, a lineage needs to be exemplified as the quintessential strong race.

Yes! You can have a Strength 10 Minotaur be "stronger" than a Strength 10 Elf by giving it a higher carrying capacity, an ability to do more damage with really big weapons, etc.

EDIT: That is to say, even without ASI's, there are many ways to enforce this idea.

NaturalZero · Jan 27, 2021

The fact that this is the way they plan on doing race going forward is hopeful. Character building it going to need a full reboot to be done correctly but having unique racial powers be "lineage," all of the skills and cultural stuff be "background," and letting bland math modifiers be a universal ability score pick lets everyone who want to play cliche elves and dwarves do just that but also opens the door for a boatload of concepts to work without unnecessary math penalties. There is nothing but upside to this design direction.

Micah Sweet · Jan 27, 2021

I really wish WotC had taken the effort to create a point system for creating custom lineages. All the stuff that races can currently do would be on the list for a cost, and you just make what you want. They could include packages resembling the classics as examples if they want, but empathize player choice. The current system seems incomplete.

Laurefindel · Jan 27, 2021

Flamestrike said:
There is. Literally every single other Elf in the game world is weaker than every other Minotaur.

The PC is the exception to the general rule.

That is a balance.

(...)

The PC being an exception to that accepted norm doesn't render the accepted norm invalid. They're just special by virtue of being the protagonists of the story.

But the game, as we perceive it, is only viewed from the perspective of the one-in-a-milion PC, so the references become effectively irrelevant and setting-specific.

Is it a bad thing? Perhaps not. Then you could easily have a setting with pygmy minotaurs and buffed-up elves; the basic rules would only facilitate that. Personally, I prefer stronger paradigms.

Tales and Chronicles · Jan 27, 2021

Micah Sweet said:
THIS is an idea I could get behind. Expanding background would give back the cultural aspects of character creation I was looking for. Still leaves classic races looking rather anemic, but it seems that's what people want.

Indeed: remove the cultural aspect of the PHB races, and they are rather anemic.

What do you do then? You add new features replacing the lost ones!

Lineage
Dwarves (aka stone-blooded, stout folk, mountain born)
Speed 25 ft
Stout: Increase the size of your HD die by 1.
Stone sense: Tremor sense 20 ft. Advantage on Int and Wis checks related to stonework and hidden stone features.
Cast-Iron stomach: Resistance to poison damage and saves against he poisoned condition.
Dwarven resilience: Advantage on STR, CON, WIS saves against magic. When an effect would move you against your will you can reduce the distance by 5 ft.

add to that a buffed Background as-seen-above and you are good to go.

Laurefindel · Jan 27, 2021

BookTenTiger said:
Yes! You can have a Strength 10 Minotaur be "stronger" than a Strength 10 Elf by giving it a higher carrying capacity, an ability to do more damage with really big weapons, etc.

EDIT: That is to say, even without ASI's, there are many ways to enforce this idea.

I think that, given the direction WotC seems to be heading, this would be the way to go. But as I said earlier, there are still many instances where "strong race" is only represented by a +2 Str, so losing that exclusive +2 Str is losing the whole reference to "strong race".

This thread made me realise that this is what's bugging me. Now I long for a more profound race and background makeover. Not to make things different, more intricate, and introduce more options, but to rebalance things and define each race mechanically.

Remathilis · Jan 27, 2021

Laurefindel said:
But the game, as we perceive it, is only viewed from the perspective of the one-in-a-milion PC, so the references become effectively irrelevant and setting-specific.

Is it a bad thing? Perhaps not. Then you could easily have a setting with pygmy minotaurs and buffed-up elves; the basic rules would only facilitate that. Personally, I prefer stronger paradigms.

We already perceive the game though one in a million PCs; draconic-blooded sorcerers, warlocks who make pacts with Great Old Ones, fighters who shrug off direct hits from trebuchets. Add this to the list of why PCs don't represents the common folk.

D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Gothic Lineages & New Race/Culture Distinction

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