D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

doctorbadwolf said:

Mostly the fact that “part of the larger multiverse” is different from “a bubble within the great wheel”, because the multiverse wasn’t the great wheel in 3.5.

Click to expand...

OK, so your are saying that in 3.5 there a several independent realities, a multiverse in the current pulp sense. So the cosmologies could be completely different in each reality and the realities are only thinly connected by being part of the same greater multiverse. so the great wheel sat next to the world tree or krynn-verse or eberron-verse, but didn't overlap them. Is that correct? If so, I didn't realize that and thank you for the clarification. A

doctorbadwolf said:

Also I remember Keith’s thoughts back then, I was one of the people asking him what was up. And he acknowledged that it was a change, but said that it wasn’t as big a change as it might seem, because they always thought of Eberron being part of the larger D&D multiverse, and that the 5e change (which he called a change multiple times) was something he didn’t mind and/or liked.

Click to expand...

I guess a I remember differently. IIRC, he said it was a change in wording, but not intent. Of course, if what I now understand about 3.5's mulitverse (from above) is correct, it is actually a change in kind/intent, not just words as the multiverse around it has changed.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Drbadwolf was talking about Eberron not being part of the same cosmology. You quoted this and then talked about Eberron being part of the same multiverse.
You may not have seen the distinction, but these are two different things. - They were using cosmology to mean the planar structure, as opposed to the multiverse.

5e canon is that Eberron exists in the same multiverse as Planescape at least: The gnome Vi is mentioned in both Eberron and non-Eberron sources as living in Sigil, but having come from Eberron originally.
However Eberron does not have the Great Wheel: Eberron's cosmology is very different.

Click to expand...

I already replied to DBW's reply to the quote you are replying too. I think I understand now. However, I do want to clarify the cosmology and multiverse are not necessarily separate things. However, the vagueness of those terms did indeed lead to a misunderstanding.

JEB said:

Correct, that was a retcon for the Forgotten Realms. (Not so sure about 1E or 2E Dragonlance; not my area of expertise.) Still, the different settings definitely (and intentionally) did not have a unified cosmology in the 3E era.

Click to expand...

Even then, the 3rd Edition take still included notes on how the different cosmologies were linked. For instance, the Player's Guide to Faerûn (affiliate link) stated (p. 140):

As described in Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Shadow constitutes the primary link between Toril’s planar cosmology and those of other worlds. The Plane of Shadow connects Toril’s Material Plane with those of other worlds, including the default world for the D&D core books—the World of Greyhawk. Naturally, in a land as full of magical portals as Faerûn is, unusual portals that connect to other Material Planes via conduits through the Plane of Shadow almost certainly exist. Some sages point to such connections as the source of spells named after the great wizards of Greyhawk, such as Otto’s irresistible dance, Otiluke’s freezing sphere, Tenser’s transformation, and the various Bigby’s hand spells.

Click to expand...

Player's Guide to Faerun also apparently established that Toril was linked to multiple cosmologies with separate planes and gods:

Toril's Material plane actually linked to several other Astral planes, each of which connected Toril to the outer-planer homes of a different set of deities. They were based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons. As such, there was an Astral Plane for the Maztican and Zakharan pantheons (even though many of the Zakharan deities resided on the Material Plane). The Kara-Turan faiths were not connected to their own astral plane, as instead their deities connected to the Spirit World. Very little was known in Faerûn about these other astral planes, but it was theorized that Ao supervised them just as he adjudicated the conflicts between the pantheons.

Click to expand...

Source

So the Forgotten Realms went from being part of the Great Wheel cosmology in 2E to apparently being part of multiple cosmologies in 3E, each with its own unique Astral Plane, to the World Axis cosmology in 4E (which, IIRC, was originally devised for the Forgotten Realms but then also used for the default setting) and finally back to the Great Wheel in 5E, this time bringing along the formerly independent Eberron (which did not use the World Axis cosmology in 4E).

The 3E Forgotten Realms cosmology is kind of fascinating, honestly. Instead of being surrounded by the Great Wheel or the World Axis, it was basically an independent bubble that had links to multiple Astral Planes and sets of Outer Planes depending on which pantheon of gods was most prominently revered in a given geographic region. This is a very versatile idea. It makes it so that campaign settings don't necessarily belong to a given cosmology, but can be linked to one or more. 3E Forgotten Realms was essentially the hub of a network of cosmologies, whereas settings like Eberron and Ghostwalk only had a link to one cosmology.

You could even use it to say that the Dragonlance setting may have been connected to a unique cosmology but somehow had that link severed and replaced by a link to the Great Wheel, which the people of the setting may be almost completely unaware of. This changes the context from the people of Krynn being very ignorant about their cosmology's true nature to trying to figure out why they were so wrong about cosmology, not knowing that their world had been separated from its original cosmology and linked to another.

You could also use this with 5E Eberron. It's not that the people of Eberron have always been ignorant of the Great Wheel cosmology beyond their world and its planes, but that the connection to the Great Wheel is new. You could also take a page from the 3E Forgotten Realms and say that perhaps Eberron is still most strongly connected to its original cosmology, which is entirely separate from the Great Wheel, rather than the Eberron cosmology somehow being part of Eberron's Material Plane within the Great Wheel.

This explanation is kind of complicated, but it has precedent and, IMO, has the most opportunity for connecting cosmologies to settings without invalidating the earlier identity of the setting. It's not that Eberron and Krynn have always been part of the Great Wheel, but that a new connection has been formed with it. Eberron maintains a strong connection to its original cosmology, while Krynn has lost connection to its original.

Even if Takhisis is an aspect of Tiamat, it could be that they are essentially competing Tiamats that dwell in separate cosmologies. Perhaps the Tiamat of the Great Wheel doesn't want to share with her alternate counterpart and has somehow separated Krynn from the cosmology where Takhisis is supreme and either established herself as the new Takhisis or forced her counterpart to combine with her or die, with the people of Krynn largely unaware that a change has occurred.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Drbadwolf was talking about Eberron not being part of the same cosmology. You quoted this and then talked about Eberron being part of the same multiverse.
You may not have seen the distinction, but these are two different things. - They were using cosmology to mean the planar structure, as opposed to the multiverse.

5e canon is that Eberron exists in the same multiverse as Planescape at least: The gnome Vi is mentioned in both Eberron and non-Eberron sources as living in Sigil, but having come from Eberron originally.
However Eberron does not have the Great Wheel: Eberron's cosmology is very different.

Click to expand...

"It's just a model"

Uni-the-Unicorn! said:

OK, so your are saying that in 3.5 there a several independent realities, a multiverse in the current pulp sense. So the cosmologies could be completely different in each reality and the realities are only thinly connected by being part of the same greater multiverse. so the great wheel sat next to the world tree or krynn-verse or eberron-verse, but didn't overlap them. Is that correct? If so, I didn't realize that and thank you for the clarification. A

I guess a I remember differently. IIRC, he said it was a change in wording, but not intent. Of course, if what I now understand about 3.5's mulitverse (from above) is correct, it is actually a change in kind/intent, not just words as the multiverse around it has changed.

Click to expand...

Yeah he was just vague enough to not contradict wotc directly, while getting his point across that this wasn’t soemthing he considered a big deal.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Drbadwolf was talking about Eberron not being part of the same cosmology. You quoted this and then talked about Eberron being part of the same multiverse.
You may not have seen the distinction, but these are two different things. - They were using cosmology to mean the planar structure, as opposed to the multiverse.

5e canon is that Eberron exists in the same multiverse as Planescape at least: The gnome Vi is mentioned in both Eberron and non-Eberron sources as living in Sigil, but having come from Eberron originally.
However Eberron does not have the Great Wheel: Eberron's cosmology is very different.

Click to expand...

Those are not mutually exclusive positions. The planar lore since at least 1e is that there are an infinite number of prime planes, including our own Earth. Eberron is just another of those, making it part of the same multiverse as the rest of the settings. However, some of those prime planar settings like Eberron have mostly different planar cosmologies.

Even in 3e Eberron had access to the Astral Plane, which means color pools from the Astral exist for Eberron, allowing others, if they get extremely lucky, to find it and show up from say Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms.

Expanding on my previous post:

In 2E, the Forgotten Realms was part of the Great Wheel as described in the Planescape setting (where all the gods lived in the same set of planes).

3E shook this up massively, with the explanation being that Vecna was the cause.

"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."

Click to expand...

Not only was the 3E Forgotten Realms not part of the Great Wheel, it didn't belong to any one cosmology. The World Tree cosmology that is commonly believed to be the standard for 3E Forgotten Realms was actually only the cosmology of Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheon:

The cosmology detailed here accounts for the homes of the deities in the Faerûnian pantheon, various nonhuman pantheons (dragon, giant, goblinoid, orc, drow, dwarven, elven, gnome, and halfling), and the Mulhorandi pantheon. Toril is also home to a number of additional faiths, and the gods of those faiths live in additional planes connected to Toril. Little is known in Faerûn about most of these planes, and the exact nature of their connection to Faerûn is rather mysterious.

Click to expand...

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril's Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities. These Astral Planes are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons. The Astral Plane known to characters in Faerûn leads to the planes of the Faerûnian pantheon, as well as the nonhuman pantheons (whose geographical area of control overlaps that of the Faerûnian deities) and the Mulhorandi pantheon. Characters in other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by their own deities. Ao is thought to supervise the separate Astral Planes just as he adjudicates conflicts between the pantheons.

Click to expand...

The Astral Plane of Zakhara connects to the same elemental planes that connect with Faerûn, as well as to a plane where the souls of the righteous are rewarded (the Garden of Delight) and one where the wicked are punished (the Place of Fire). The many genies that are so active in Zakhara live on the elemental planes, while the deities of the Zakharan faiths live either on the Material Plane in Zakhara itself or on some other plane unknown to mortals and unreachable from the Material Plane.

Click to expand...

The Spirit World described in the Appendix in Manual of the Planes is coexistent with and coterminous to the Material Plane, but only in Kara-Tur. Each deity of Kara-Tur's Celestial Bureaucracy has a small realm attached to the Spirit World. Because it is a transitive plane, the Spirit World replaces the Astral Plane in Kara-Tur.

Click to expand...

The Astral Plane of Maztica connects to the planes of the Maxtican deities. These planes can be visualized as many planar layers stacked both above and below the earth. Each celestial layer is the home of a deity and a sacred bird; each underworld layer is a challenge for the souls of the dead, who must progress all the way to the bottom layer to find their eternal peace. These planes are populated by outsiders as well as deities.

Click to expand...

Source

I couldn't find a nice illustration for this, but I went ahead and whipped up a simple representation of the true 3E Forgotten Realms cosmology:



As far as I can tell, in 4E the Spellplague changed the Faerunian Astral Plane in such a way that it shifted from the World Tree model to the World Axis model while severing the connection of the other Astral Planes to Toril (the entirety of Maztica shifted from Toril to its counterpart Abeir, so hypothetically the link to the Maztican Astral Plane could have been shifted from Toril to Abeir).

Rather than providing an explanation for the cosmology changing, as was done for both the transition from the Great Wheel cosmology to the "multiple Astral Planes" cosmology and from that cosmology to the World Axis cosmology, 5E hand waves everything away by saying that the various cosmologies are all just models. In practice, though, the Great Wheel is effectively presumed to be true by the majority despite apparently not actually being a real thing.

I'm also curious to how the "everything's just a model" stance interacts with 3E's cosmology that included separate Astral Planes with unique sets of Outer Planes and gods. Was it the case that there was actually only one Astral Plane, but it was so vast that it gave the impression that groups of Outer Planes were in their own separate Astral Planes? What happened to the planes in the 3E schema that are not present in the Great Wheel? Were they never truly independent planes, but actually sections of the planes of the Great Wheel?

In my opinion, 5E is trying to have it's cake and eat it to by saying that all previous cosmological explanations and details were only theory and models while also presenting the Great Wheel model as the only model anyone takes seriously. Eberron's planes are said to be part of its Material Plane to fit it into the Great Wheel despite the Great Wheel supposedly not actually being a thing that exists.

Well, considering that the 2E Tales of the Dragonlance boxed set listed Bah'mut as an alternate name of Paladine, and Tii'Mut of Tiamat, I think it's pretty crystal what the concept was. Trying to forcibly separate them is ridiculous, and I was never aware of such a thing.

Aaron L said:

Well, considering that the 2E Tales of the Dragonlance boxed set listed Bah'mut as an alternate name of Paladine, and Tii'Mut of Tiamat, I think it's pretty crystal what the concept was. Trying to forcibly separate them is ridiculous, and I was never aware of such a thing.

Click to expand...

Again, 2e retconned the matter—in 1e they were distinct and had completely different stats.