D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

Just a thought, but given they are still legal & from a PHB, but not in the 2024 PHB, should they s

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 48.6%
  • No

    Votes: 81 38.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 14 6.7%
  • Other explained in comments

    Votes: 13 6.2%

I really want a someone to explain to me how we got to the point where depicting a bad thing in fiction in order to show it is bad became problematic. Like this is some weird horseshoe stuff where supposed progressive values lead to the same outcome as regressive ones.
You're mis-describing where things have ended up.

For a start, the notion of "depiction" isn't quite right. The way a RPG works is that some of the participants adopt the roles of protagonists in the fiction. So the fantasy racism won't just be depicted. It will be encountered and experienced.

Straight away, that's a salient difference from some other media.
 

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And its been a weird look for those past 30 years. Let's not kid ourselves, it has always been a weird look that one of the basic races for the game is "One of your parents is an elf and the other a human, but you're all rare enough its not like a big ol civilisation or anything". Its been a weird look through this game's entire history
That's your personal opinion, but it's apparently not the opinion of a huge number(probably a large majority) of players who have made the race popular since 1e. A popularity that would not have happened had it actually been a weird look.
As someone heavily involved in one of those aformentioned video games, I can confirm they're not always popular in all of them. If you can find a single character build for Half Elves in NWN, I'd be shocked as I couldn't find any. And, well, even counting BG3's massive numbers, even the most popular D&D video game is a drop in the bucket compared to the absolute behemoths in the market like WoW or FFXIV, neither of who have half elves as a thing outside of rare circumstances
WoW has 7.5 million players right now and BG3 has sold 10 million copies.
 

And, well, even counting BG3's massive numbers, even the most popular D&D video game is a drop in the bucket compared to the absolute behemoths in the market like WoW or FFXIV, neither of who have half elves as a thing outside of rare circumstances
Don't have too much time to comment on the overall topic at the moment, but FFXIV's Heavensward expansion had the, admittedly minor, character of Hilda Ware, who was explicitly half-Hyur (human) half-Elezen (elf) and it's been confirmed that the various peoples of the world can and do produce mixed offspring.

And WoW's current War Within expansion just introduced a hitherto unknown offshoot of the ancient Arathi humans who long ago sailed off to the other side of the world alongside their high elf allies and forged a largely(?) mixed "half-elf" Arathi Empire that is being set up as a significant player in the game's future storylines.
 

The overwhelming majority do not state they find this species weird. They actively like it and play it and read about half-elf characters and watch them and play video games with them, etc..

You find it weird. I am not judging you for finding it weird. Most people don't seem to find it weird. That should be highly relevant.
When even /tg/'s little wiki opens their Half Elf article with "who, alongside gnomes, have the dubious honor of being regarded as one of the most superfluous and "do we really need this race?" races in fantasy gaming", I get the feeling its not just a me thing.

Gnomes at least have a bit of a niche to their own, even if minor

Because people really, really like them on average. That is the reason. It's a good reason. It's a powerful reason. Simply repeating "but why" isn't a response to that really good reason.
Folks like thri-kreen to the point that Dark Sun requests have been the lifeblood of 5E forum posts for most of its life and yet no one's asking for them to be PHB content despite being popular. Liking a race isn't enough for it to be in the PHB, and the PHB shouldn't be a Best Of, because if its a Best Of then a lot of races folks like hanging around won't be lasting and instead we'd have Dragonwrought Kobolds and Humans for their old 3.5E shenannigans, with Halflings, Half Orcs and Dwarves consigned to non-existence

People like them for the general concept of them, not just the mechanical benefits. Survey after survey says the story elements of the core game are highly relevant to their enjoyment of the game. Optimizers are a minority. People often pick a species because they like the story and look of the species, not the mechanics which are secondary to them.
Why should they be in the basic book? What unique mechanics are they bringing to "Hi there, person who has never played Dungeons and Dragons in your life, here are a wide variety of options to show you what choices you have to play as?" Are half elves that much of a common occurrence through the planes and universe that they need to have a place in the first book produced, and aren't just side content?

Those are not based on D&D, while the 5.24e PHB is?
Final Fantasy was famously so inspired by Dungeons and Dragons that, not only are its classes based on D&D to the point that its mages a riff on the Dragonlance robed mages (White, Red and Black), but 90% of the original Final Fantasy monsters are based on D&D ones. Ochus are Otyughs, the Beholder had to be changed for western releases because it was so blatently a Beholder and now became the Evil Eye, MJindflayers and Sahagin both show up, the king of the dragon is called Bahamut and the Fiend of Wind is a 5 headed dragon called Tiamat. That's just a brief, I could go way harder, but Final Fantasy is D&D inspired

As for Warcraft? Warcraft is blatently D&D inspired, along with the Warhammer inspiration. Like, they got Knaak writing Warcraft books because they liked his Dragonlance work, and Warcraft was so popular in the day you can track its expansion releases by drops of sales in RPG stores, because folks weren't buying RPGs or cards and instead playing WoW

Don't have too much time to comment on the overall topic at the moment, but FFXIV's Heavensward expansion had the, admittedly minor, character of Hilda Ware, who was explicitly half-Hyur (human) half-Elezen (elf) and it's been confirmed that the various peoples of the world can and do produce mixed offspring.

And WoW's current War Within expansion just introduced a hitherto unknown offshoot of the ancient Arathi humans who long ago sailed off to the other side of the world alongside their high elf allies and forged a largely(?) mixed "half-elf" Arathi Empire that is being set up as a significant player in the game's future storylines.
Hilda's noted in that rarity thing as its generally noted in XIV that, 90% of the time? Kids of mixed heritage just look like the mum's race. Its about the best excuse we have for miqo'te with mis-matched eye types depending on what they should be (F'lhaminn being the classic example of this, she's a Seeker with Keeper features), but Hilda's the only one to display elezen ears despite being a hyur

Prior to the Arathi there'd only been 3 known half elves in universe: Arator and Veresa's twins. They exist, but if you were making a Warcraft RPG (like say, the World of Warcraft RPG) you'd want to do a Mok'nathal (Half orc half ogre) far more readily than a half elf, as they're simply a more common part of the universe. As neat as Rexxar is though, would a Mok'nathal -really- be PHB content though?
 

When even /tg/'s little wiki opens their Half Elf article with "who, alongside gnomes, have the dubious honor of being regarded as one of the most superfluous and "do we really need this race?" races in fantasy gaming", I get the feeling its not just a me thing.

I didn't say or imply it's just a you thing. I said the overwhelming majority seem to like them. Every single objective measure we have shows they are very popular. Top 3 species. And that that's relevant regardless of whatever /tg/ little wiki says.


Gnomes at least have a bit of a niche to their own, even if minor


Folks like thri-kreen to the point that Dark Sun requests have been the lifeblood of 5E forum posts for most of its life and yet no one's asking for them to be PHB content despite being popular. Liking a race isn't enough for it to be in the PHB, and the PHB shouldn't be a Best Of, because if its a Best Of then a lot of races folks like hanging around won't be lasting and instead we'd have Dragonwrought Kobolds and Humans for their old 3.5E shenannigans, with Halflings, Half Orcs and Dwarves consigned to non-existence

Being a top 3 race that people like is reason enough to be in the PHB. Thri-Keen didn't even rank top 10. We have so many different ways we've measured popularity. Half-elf always scores very very high. Thri-keen never do.

Humans, Halfling, and Dwarves all ALSO rank very high in every objective measurement we have of popularity. They're not "hanging around" they're actually directly measured repeatedly for decades as popular by fans of this game.

Yes, being very popular is in fact a fantastic reason to include it. It's a way better reason than mechanics, given something can be very unique mechanically and yet be unpopular. Giving people what they want for their entertainment is pretty crucial to entertainment. It's kind of a primary point of it.


Why should they be in the basic book?

Because they are extremely popular.

Even if you ask 10 times, it will be that same answer.

What unique mechanics

I already responded to that. People often don't choose species based on mechanics. They choose them based on look and feel and flavor and setting elements. They don't care about the mechanics much.

And every time you mention mechanics, I will answer that same way: it's not about mechanics. The game isn't just about mechanics. It would be a much shorter book if it were just mechanics.
 
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I didn't say or imply it's just a you thing. I said the overwhelming majority seem to like them. Every single objective measure we have shows they are very popular. Top 3 species. And that that's relevant regardless of whatever /tg/ little wiki says.
What measures do we have though? We have 5E's character numbers, which we know for a fact is inherantly biased due to the half elf's inherant power. We don't have anything that comprehensive for any other edition.

I decided to do an experiment on this, incidentally, and ways we can determine how popular something is, because there's a lot of "Yeah this thing is popular" being said but the only numbers we have are the inherantly biased ones that don't have any data on older editions.

Because they are extremely popular.

Even if you ask 10 times, it will be that same answer.
Are they extremely popular, though?

The only edition we have any sort of numbers on for rolled characters is 5E, where half elves specifically are one of the stronger races from a mechanical standpoint with a lot of websites, if you google 'dnd class', telling you just how to roll one and set them up easy. We have no data for 3E, none for 1 or 2E (unless someone can find an old Dragon or Dungeon Magazine article, but that's undoubtable going to be very limited to who was reading the book), and if there's any 4E data, I haven't found it

I decided to have some fun on this one actually, I fished out Google Trends to try and use that to determine how much interest there is in them over a time period. You can replicate this experiment yourself! I limited it to the year range due to Google's search result thing changing, as the information before hand wasn't moving too much

Over this year period, half elves are not the most popular. They're not even in the top ones, the most popular one I managed to find are Elves by a long shot. Humans, Dragonborn, Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, Aasimar and Tieflings fit a second tier, and Half Elves were all the way down in the third batch with Genasi, Goliath, Gnomes, Halflings and Tabaxi, with Half Orcs just under that batch but close enough they're statistically in the same zone. There's also a fourth tier which is the complete unknowns, Yuan-ti, giff, thri-kreen, firbolg, the obscurees. Githyanki was in that bottom-most tier until BG3 released, at which point its jumped up to just under Half Orc

Half elves have their peaks of popularity but, using this as an indication of overall popularity? These numbers indicate they're on par with halflings, genasi, gnomes and tabaxi, just above half orcs, and I don't see anyone saying genasi or tabaxi should be making it into the PHB on their popularity, unless you can provide an explanation that explains why they're being looked into less but are somehow more popular than the races being looked at more. Elves are clearly the ones the most popular looking at this

Half Elves are more popular than Greyhawk over the same time period though, so that's something. Greyhawk has basically no interest on it going through

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Being a top 3 race that people like is reason enough to be in the PHB. Thri-Keen didn't even rank top 10. We have so many different ways we've measured popularity. Half-elf always scores very very high. Thri-keen never do.

Humans, Halfling, and Dwarves all ALSO rank very high in every objective measurement we have of popularity. They're not "hanging around" they're actually directly measured repeatedly for decades as popular by fans of this game.

Yes, being very popular is in fact a fantastic reason to include it. It's a way better reason than mechanics, given something can be very unique mechanically and yet be unpopular. Giving people what they want for their entertainment is pretty crucial to entertainment. It's kind of a primary point of it.
This is just a massive speil about ensuring data collection and usage is appropriate to the task at hand so if you also get twice annual training courses on that at your job, feel free to skip this but just note its "The D&D Beyond data is suspect with noted biases towards free items, and therefore cannot be used to confirm anything except that 'This is what D&D Beyond users roll', making it difficult to use as a true measure of anything individual popuarlity point in the wider D&D fan space."

Looking at the information I have found, they're not a Top 3 race except for this edition. We have one measurement of popularity (Characters rolled in a single character builder, which was not Roll20 and not the market leader at the time) and that seems fairly inaccurate, this goes into some of the raw data and you can see why human fighters with grappler (which the numbers suggests is THE most popular combination of all time) is an artifact of how D&D Beyond works and not necesarily true popularity, for example. Even this is only 1.2 million out of 35 million so, once again, data is skeptical and we don't have true numbers, to say nothing of the fact that it wouldn't have any of the games that use anything other than D&D Beyond.

We only have one survey, from years ago, based on a dataset we can see is easily influenced by definitive product factors and does not necessarily show the true number of rolled characters, along with missing an unknown number of characters from home games and other online tabletops. Without being able to analyse WotC's data they used for that old survey or remove customer biases (IE: D&D Beyond's audience preferring non-paid options leading to below average numbers of the various custom lineages that may not match up with other games), we cannot confirm the data cleansing is sufficient to confirm these are actually rolled and played characters, or indicative of the wider whole. So, I'll look at the data I can justify (IE: Google loves its trends and using Google Trends as a rough indicator) to throw further doubt on top of it. If D&D Beyond's trends were accurate, we'd expect to see similar in the Google trends. And yet, we don't. The two don't even closely match. So there is reason to be skeptical that one truly reflects overall popularity. This is the point we'd go and analyse other data at hand to make a more complete one, but, well. We don't have that data.
 
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Is the issue with 1/2 races
(A) Racism?
Are we trying to eliminate racism and racial isolationism as storytelling tools?

And/Or

(B) Not unique enough as a character concept mechanically?
 


Just to clarify my point. Half-elves have no actual mechanics that define them. The only thing half-elves get is a couple of bonus skills. But, every character at the table has at least 4 skill proficiencies, from class and from background. And, because these are skill prof's, it's entirely possible that the half-elf character's skills are duplicated by other characters at the table.

If you look at Dragonborn - they have a breath weapon. Whether or not it's really effective isn't the point. If you breathe fire on something, that says a lot about your character. Same with Tieflings and Hellish Rebuke. It's entirely possible that, unless someone also creates an infernal warlock, you are the only character with this trait at the table. It's pretty defining. Even halflings, which I've gone on at length arguing should be punted from the PHB, have Luck which will come up often enough at the table to keep reminding everyone that my character is, in fact a halfing.

But that half-elf character? Ohh, you have proficiency in History. So does Dave's human bard. Maybe you have proficiency in Acrobatics. Well, so does Steve's monk. There's nothing in the race mechanics that makes them actually stand out as an actual race.

So, yeah, my vote is what they did with 2024. Make all the "hybrid" races purely cosmetic. Fantastic. it's simpler and means that we don't need to worry about fifteen thousand "half" races in the game. Pick another race, use that race's mechanics and call it a day. Done and dusted.
 

In the Alfheim Gazetteer from the Mystara line they speak about the cosmetic look but that the offspring either leans human or elven. Of course one can argue that is a setting feature, but I think that could easily enough be applied to Tanis Half-Elven of Dragonlance and the world of Toril.

I cannot speak to many other settings as I'm not familiar enough with the lore of Dark Sun, Eberron and CR's settings.

EDIT: I would offer a blurb in the PHB on the half-races characters with features for players to select from each race. @Mistwell's point about it being a popular player choice is likely valid but I have no stats on that. That is just an assumption on my part.
 

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