2-Weapon Fighting vs. 1-Weapon Fighting

[Lord Vangarel]

It sure cannot be a bastard sword and have the bonuses you mention.

The character uses a bastard sword in each hand. Exotic Weapon allows the weapon to be wielded one-handed. Ambidexterity, Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting all reduce the penalties for fighting this way. At 1st level with a 19 Strength the character had -1/-1 on his attacks.

At 6th level Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and magic weapons have improved things. One weapon is a +2 the other is a +1. Both flame on command. His attack bonuses are +9/+8 and damage is 1d10+8+1d6 and 1d10+6+1d6.

I think the above is correct as I'm doing it from memory.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

jontherev, the +2 increase at 3rd level is +1 BAB and +1 WF.

 

[bensei]

The duel wielding character has a better chance to inflict damage on a higher AC opponent, though.

p = probability to hit with one weapon

(I)
Str = 18
prob. to hit = p
two handed Greatsword (avg. damage = 2*3.5 + 1.5*4 = 13)
expected damage per round = 13*p

(II)
Str = 18
prob. to hit = p - 0.1
one Bastard Sword (avg. damage = 5.5 + 4 = 9.5)
one Short Sword (avg. damage = 3.5 + 0.5*4 = 5.5)
expected damage per round = 15*(p-1) = 15*p - 1.5

I.e. two handed better <=> p > 0.75

So if criticals are not considered, for a Str-18-fighter wielding two weapons deals more damage if he would hit with one weapon on a roll of 6 or lower. Conversely, if it is hard to hit his opponent, he better use one weapon two handed.

 

[jontherev]

jontherev, the +2 increase at 3rd level is +1 BAB and +1 WF.

Ok, I see what you did now. You have the bonuses correct. So, since he has two swords, +1 and +2, give the other guy a +2 greatsword and some +2 armor to balance out. Get the cleric to cast Bull's Strength on him in the morning, boosting his AC up to a possible 24 (assuming 19 Strength at 4th level). With Weapon Specialization, he's doing a minimum of 14 damage everytime he hits! This is at 4th level! His average damage per swing, when he hits, is 19! Add 2 to these totals if he has a +2 Greatsword. Oh, and I didn't mention criticals.

 

[Umbran]

The character uses a bastard sword in each hand. Exotic Weapon allows the weapon to be wielded one-handed. Ambidexterity, Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting all reduce the penalties for fighting this way.

My apologies, I miscounted in my own calculatons.

Still, at first level, the dual-bastard sword wielder is at total attack bonus of -1, where the single wielder is at +5, without considering any feats the single-wielder might have taken. You don't find a difference of 6 to be significant? Where I come from, if you attack at a total bonus of -1 when you could attack at +5 or more, you're likely to die.

The Dual-wielders will always be at least 4 attack bonus behind single wielders, and the single wielders have at least two extra feats (since they don't take Ambidex and TWF) with which to widen the gap in both attack bonus and damage.

Also note that at later levels, for similar expenditure of wealth, the single-wielder will have one superior weapon, where the dual-wielder must split his wealth between two weapons, leaving them mediocre by comparison.

With those kinds of advantages, it should not be too difficult to make a single-wielder that matches up.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I would use a FTR with full plate, a bastard sword (exotic wpn prof) and a large shield, for an AC of 21 without dex or magic.

let's assume he's a 3rd level FTR with an 18 STR, so, he would have a +9 to hit (+3 BAB, +4 STR, +1 Specialization, +1 MW sword). His bonus to damage is +4. Give the FTR a 13 DEX and +1 shield and armor, and his AC goes up to 24, and your dual wielder needs a 20 to hit him with his +4 total attack bonus, while the single weapon wielder can hit your AC 16 guy on a 7 or better.

I'll leave out magic bonuses to damage for the calculations below:

The 2-sword guy does an average of .95 pts per round (9.5 x 2 x 5% chance to hit).

The 1-sword guy does 6.65 pts/rd (9.5 x 70% chance to hit).

The dual wielder wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

+4/+4 doesn't look so hot when you opponent has a 24 AC.

full plate, shield, protection from good, +1 for dex. That is already AC 23. Throw in a +1 shield, Magic Vestment for +1 or +2, and/or Bane/Prayer and your heroes are going to has some problems.

As already noted, Spring Attack will negate the second weapon as well.

Or give that barbarian a +1 Keen Greatsword.

 

[Belares]

First off having a fighter with a 18STR and a 15DEX(for ambidexty) is hard unless you are playing 4D6 or more than 32 point buy.

1st-exotic wpn(bastard sword), Ambidextry(dex 15+), 18 STR, BAB +1 using two B. swords =

-6,-10) normal
-6,-6) ambdex.
-2,-2) 18 STR
-1,-1) +1 BAB

2nd-2 weapon fighting, BAB +1 =

-6,-10) normal
-6,-6) ambdex.
-2,-2) 18 STR
0,0) 2 wpn fighting
+2,+2) +2 BAB

3rd- weapon focus, BAB +3

-6,-10) normal
-6,-6) ambdex.
-2,-2) 18 STR
0,0) 2 wpn fighting
+1,+1) Wpn focus
+4,+4) +3 BAB

To add to this be a human and you can do the 2 wpn at 1st or wpn focus and then at 2nd take either one you have not yet. Then with at 3rd level take power attack or dodge or whatever. Of course at 4th you can take wpn specialization.

 

[Nail]

L.V.-

If yer interested, a buddy of mine an' I worked out an excel spreadsheet to look into this. It's all professional lookin' an' everything....

The bottom line is that, on average:

* The best two-weapon combo is double sword. Two bastard swords gives much less damage than double sword, at levels 1 thru 20. Let's say that in a different way: weilding two b-swords sucks, in comparison.

* The best weapon selection, bar none, is great sword. It does far more damage than even double sword, at all levels (except for a weird stretch between 6th and 8th where it's real close).

* However, if you actually write up a combat simulator, and pit fighters with different weapons, but otherwise of equal levels (& etc.) against each other, you find that "sword 'n board" almost always wins. Even though it does the least amount of average damage per round. At levels up to about 15th or so. That sheild armor (and eventual magic) bonus makes a big difference.

So really, if yer players wanna pick an inferior weapon combo, let 'em...........nothing's broken. Just start showin' 'em what *really* works.....

-Nail

 

[Voadam]

From the srd

If a combatant wields a second weapon in the off hand, that combatant can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and a combatant suffers a -6 penalty for regular attacks with a combatant's primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with a combatant's off hand. A combatant can reduce these stiff penalties in three ways:

* If a combatant's off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. A light weapon is one that's smaller than a weapon a combatant could use in one hand. Its size category is smaller than a combatant's. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

* The Ambidexterity feat reduces the off-hand penalty by 4.

* The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces both penalties by 2.

So two proficient bastard swords are -4 -4 not -2 -2 because the off hand weapon is not light. A trade of two attack bonus for bigger second weapon damage. They might be better off going with an off hand short sword until they get weapon focus at 3rd and specialization at 4th at which point it tips decidedly towards two bastard swords I would think.

You have 3rd level fighters +3 BAB with str 18 (+4) and weapon focus +1 for +8 bonuses at 3rd so +4, +4. I believe your examples are correct.

I would counter with a power attacking weapon focused barbarian, so he can get more damage and lots more on AoO, use a greatsword or greataxe. At 3rd level without raging if he puts three into damage he is +5 to hit and does +9 damage (+6 for strength x1.5 and plus 3 for power attack). Raging this goes up to +7 attack and +11 damage.

The two wielder gets A total of +6 (total) for damage, but does two base bastard sword damages versus one greatsword/axe.