D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[dave2008]

I kind of like the idea that there shouldn't be a "to hit" roll at all, and just a "how good you did" roll. And sometimes it isn't good enough, because armor or whatever.

I like this idea - what do we call it.

Is that what MCDM is doing? I have a vague tingle in the back of my overworked, under caffeinated brain....

In their game you just roll damage, no hit or how good you did roll.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wait, so you are not a fan of fireball and a bunch of spells that have damage on a successful save?! I would not have suspected that!

I support the idea that spells like this might not work, or might miss. I don't care for the perfect record D&D magic has.

 

[Lord Twig]

I would like to point out that I did not re-start the "Damage on a Miss" argument. I stated that Graze was "Damage on a Miss" that it felt like it came from 4e, and that I did not like it. It was the forces of the 4e supporters that immediately came in claiming that people the don't like it "just can't understand what Hit Points mean!" Like that is not an insult.

Yes, I do understand that Hit Points are not "Meat Points." I understand that not all damage has to be physical for a character to lose HP. And calling it Automatic Damage doesn't make anything better. It is Automatic Damage that I don't like!

Say you have had a long fight and your characters are running low on HP. The bad guy moves in with his giant "automatic damage" sword. There is no tension. There is no chance he is going to miss. He is either going to do a lot of damage and drop you are a little bit of damage and drop you. There is no reason even to roll! I want there to be at least some chance that a character can miss and do no damage.

I also don't like it the other way around. Greatsword is, once again, the best weapon in the game. Because it cannot miss. It does automatic damage. A couple of martial characters with greatswords are going to do a guaranteed 16 points of damage to the BBEG every single round, minimum. I just don't find that fun. Others are, of course, free to feel otherwise. That doesn't make my sense of fun wrong.

But Fireball!

Yes, that is why Fireballs and other area of effect spells are terrifying. If you know that the bad guy can cast Fireball you are in trouble. Unless you have evasion, then it can "miss" or more accurately you can dodge the effect. Or you have immunity to fire. Or he is out of Fireball spells, since it is a limited resource (greatsword swings are infinite). Or some other way of avoiding the damage, like spreading out so not everyone is in the area.

 

[Lord Twig]

I like this idea - what do we call it.

In there game you just roll damage, no hit or how good you did roll.

Yeah, I remember seeing an ad for an RPG (it might have been this one) and they were saying. "No need to roll to hit! You just roll to see how much damage you do everyturn so you are always making progress!" Or something like that. And that was it for me. I'm out.

Not saying it is a bad way to play or that a lot of people won't enjoy the heck out of it, it is just not something that I like. And it is not because "I just don't understand" thankyouverymuch.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, I remember seeing an ad for an RPG (it might have been this one) and they were saying. "No need to roll to hit! You just roll to see how much damage you do everyturn so you are always making progress!" Or something like that. And that was it for me. I'm out.

Not saying it is a bad way to play or that a lot of people won't enjoy the heck out of it, it is just not something that I like. And it is not because "I just don't understand" thankyouverymuch.

That was mostly likely the MCDM game and I had the same reaction.

 

[Minigiant]

I would like to point out that I did not re-start the "Damage on a Miss" argument. I stated that Graze was "Damage on a Miss" that it felt like it came from 4e, and that I did not like it. It was the forces of the 4e supporters that immediately came in claiming that people the don't like it "just can't understand what Hit Points mean!" Like that is not an insult.

Yes, I do understand that Hit Points are not "Meat Points." I understand that not all damage has to be physical for a character to lose HP. And calling it Automatic Damage doesn't make anything better. It is Automatic Damage that I don't like!

Say you have had a long fight and your characters are running low on HP. The bad guy moves in with his giant "automatic damage" sword. There is no tension. There is no chance he is going to miss. He is either going to do a lot of damage and drop you are a little bit of damage and drop you. There is no reason even to roll! I want there to be at least some chance that a character can miss and do no damage.

I also don't like it the other way around. Greatsword is, once again, the best weapon in the game. Because it cannot miss. It does automatic damage. A couple of martial characters with greatswords are going to do a guaranteed 16 points of damage to the BBEG every single round, minimum. I just don't find that fun. Others are, of course, free to feel otherwise. That doesn't make my sense of fun wrong.

But Fireball!

Yes, that is why Fireballs and other area of effect spells are terrifying. If you know that the bad guy can cast Fireball you are in trouble. Unless you have evasion, then it can "miss" or more accurately you can dodge the effect. Or you have immunity to fire. Or he is out of Fireball spells, since it is a limited resource (greatsword swings are infinite). Or some other way of avoiding the damage, like spreading out so not everyone is in the area.

Well martials should have a Reaction DR ability.

2024 5E might eventually provide that ability via a feat. That's a 4e ism.

 

[Lord Twig]

I think a good example of the problem I have with Graze is the Pixie. Dragons it kinda make sense. They are huge and, probably, hard to miss, but they have tough scales. So a powerful hit from a large greatsword you can kinda see doing some damage even if it doesn't "hit". Right? A mighty blow that is deflected by the scales, but still does some bruising or something. Not significant to a might beast like a Dragon, but something.

The Pixie though is a completely different situation. If you have a Pixie flying around the party taunting them, turning invisible and dodging while pulling their hair. If the dexterous rogue attacks, he can miss. The swashbuckler with the flashing rapier, can miss. The barbarian with the mighty greataxe, miss. But the fighter with the greatsword? CAN NOT MISS. Two swings and the pixie is dead (assuming 20 Str). Doesn't matter if the pixie is dodging, Disadvantage makes no difference. If the pixie is invisible, as long as the fighter picks the right square, it doesn't matter, he can't miss. Two swings and Splat! Dead.

Sure, the wizard can throw his once-a-day Fireball, but that is in the realm of "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure." It's massive overkill. But that's what wizards (and sorcerers, etc.) are for.

 

[Joshua Randall]

The greatsword does so much "whoosh" damage that it damaged the pixie's fragile wings as it goes past.

See, I can make up a fictional reason why the game element works, just as much as you can for the fireball.

(Why should a fireball harm a pixie at all? The pixie can see it coming and fly out of the way, right?)

All game elements are either nonsensical or not, as you prefer.

 

[Clint_L]

2024 is 2014 with minor tweaks, and the designers clearly feel they no longer need to hide any connection to 4e ("bloodied"). I have a campaign that segued to the 2024 rules as they came out, but only the ones players wanted, and it was barely noticeable, and not remotely difficult or confusing. But then, I've never been too stuck on any particular rule. I know them so that I can ignore them when they don't make sense.

 

[Lord Twig]

The greatsword does so much "whoosh" damage that it damaged the pixie's fragile wings as it goes past.

Why doesn't the greataxe do "whoosh" damage?

See, I can make up a fictional reason why the game element works, just as much as you can for the fireball.

(Why should a fireball harm a pixie at all? The pixie can see it coming and fly out of the way, right?)

Yep, if it has a ring of evasion and makes it dex save. Or just isn't where the wizard targets the spell.

All game elements are either nonsensical or not, as you prefer.

And I think you are missing the point. I am not saying it doesn't make sense from an in game perspective. I can make up reasons why it would work just like you can. I can make up reasons why all of the characters I listed should be able to do damage on a miss. The main argument though is that NONE of them should do automatic damage. There should always be a chance to miss and do no damage. To me that is more fun.

I was in a battle last week when one particular hobgoblin out of a group survived with 3 hit points and ran to get reinforcements. It came back with more hobgoblins and survived the whole battle to the end because no one could hit it. Every attack, by random chance, missed. The wizard cast Mind Sliver at it and it made its Int save, twice. It was hilarious. A greatsword removes that possibility. One swing and you don't even need to roll. A +3 Str bonus makes it an auto kill.

And again, that is not saying that if you like it, you are wrong. I am just saying that I do not like it, and I'm not wrong either. To me Graze makes the game less fun. If it makes it more fun for you, you are in luck, as those are the official rules.