D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Paladin's Mount w/Leadership: Is this one legal?

[Artoomis]

Question: Is the following within the rules for Paladin's Mount if one took the Leadership Feat. I have two main questions:

1. Should the Leadership Feat be required?
2. Is this mount about equal with others who require one level later advancement?


I think we are in the area of DM's discretion, but, anyway here are the stats, as modified for both being a Paladin's Mount and being a half-celestial:


Paladin, 16th level.

Mount: Half-celestial (Outsider - Augmented Animal) Riding Dog (One level delayed in advancing to the final entry on the Paladin's Mount table)

HD: 10d8 + 40 (104 hp using FR method) (Base 2HD + 8 from Paladin's Mount)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50, Fly 100 (good) (Fly is from being half-celestial)
Armor Class 37 (+4 Dex, +15 natural, +6 armor, +2 deflection), touch 16, flat-footed 33
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+14
Attack: Bite +17 melee (1d6+8)
Full Attack: Bite +17 melee (1d6+8)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities:

Low-light vision, scent, Darkvision out to 60 feet
Immunity to disease, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10.
DR 5/Magic (Damage reduction: 5/magic)
Bite is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
SR 20. (Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35))
+4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
Improved Speed, Empathic link, Improved evasion
Share spells, Share saving throws.
Feathered wings (fly with good maneuverability)
Spell-like abilities (1/day): Protection from evil 3/day
Bless, Aid, Detect evil, Cure serious wounds,
Neutralize poison, Holy smite, Remove disease, Dispel evil

Saves: Fort +18 (22 vs. Poison), Ref +15, Will +12 (Mount/Pal Base: Fort +7/+10, Ref +7/+5, Will +3/+5)
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 10 (+1 Str and Dex for 4th and 8th Hit Die)
Skills: Jump +17, Listen +14, Spot +10, Swim +8, Survival +3*
Feats: Alertness, Track*, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude
Level Adjustment: +6 (+4 Half-Celestial, +2 Paladin's Mount)
Equipment:

Saddle Blanket of Resistance +2, Celestial Armor (+6 AC), Ring of Magic Fang, Ring of Protection +2, Saddlebags Map/Scroll Case, Flint and Steel, Hammock, Silk rope: 50’, Military Saddle

Carrying capacity: light: 260, med: 261-520, hvy: 521-780, drag: 3,900 – Adjusted for higher Str.)
Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.
*Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

 

[Artoomis]

Absolutely shameless and self-serving bump.

Is this topic too:

Boring?
Complicated?

I could use some opinions on the topic, please.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, I think the fact you posted the original at 2 am may have slowed things down a bit.

I don't know about anyone else, but the main reason I didn't pay any attention to the thread is that I've been convinced the Paladin mount rules are just royally unbalanced. If you take a basic Horse mount, it's far, far weaker than if you even wait one level to pick up the Celestial template, let alone the kind of things you're talking about here. Then, I think the rule should be that no Mount can start with an INT greater than 2 before being called. After all, if a Paladin wanted a Dragon for a Mount, and the Dragon is smarter and more powerful than the Paladin, then shouldn't it go the other way around? If I play a Dragon, and use my Leadership feat to get a guy to ride on my back and heal me when I'm hurt, I have to pay a hefty ECL even before considering the bonus abilities Mounts get. So, how can that be balanced?

But that's a side rant. Anyway, to your original question:
1> If the creature had an INT of 3 or higher before being called, the Leadership feat should be required.
2> Half-Celestial is better than Celestial (note the +4 ECL instead of +2). Celestial requires you to wait one level. Half-Celestial should require you to wait at least two levels, especially when you consider that you had to Awaken the creature somehow (Half-Celestial doesn't work unless you had an INT of 4 or higher to begin with.)

 

[Artoomis]

Spatzimaus:

Thanks for your answer.

I understand your feeling about the unusual mounts being a bit out of whack. I think the reason they exist is because of the lack of survivability of the basic mount. At higher levels, the mount can become more of a liability than an asset - though less so in [3.5].

Back directly on-topic:

Your point about the intelligence is a good one. The mount in this case cannot have intelligence above two until after being a paladin's mount, but, given the way mounts work now, I figured that the mount "template" and the half-celestial template could potentially happen at the same time, with the requirement for the leadership feat being the balancing factor.

Of course, if the original dog was built using a system where you get to create it with a point value (or random method) with racial stat modifiers, then above +2 is possible. In this case, I did not do that, but used the stats right out of the MM.

As far as the half-celestial template being more powerful that celestial - well, that's true. In comparing all the creature listed in the DMG, though, it seemed like it was a bit more powerful than most of those listed as 1-level delayed, but less powerful than those listed as 2-levels delayed.

I thought perhaps the leadership feat would justify the "rounding down" to 1-level delayed.

Does this seem reasonable?

BTW - One of the things that confuses me a bit is how the leadership feat and the delaying of mounts' powers work together. I suppose I should review the discussion of dragons as mounts in DotF fo more information on that.

 

[FireLance]

Hi, Artoomis, you might have read my following post in a previous thread on Paladin mounts:

It seems to me that a paladin has four options when it comes to mounts:

(1) The "standard" option as stated in the PH. The mount gains abilities as normal.

(2) The "unusual mounts" option stated in the DMG p204, which looks like the DotF list. The mount gains abilities at a slower rate, similar to how the animal companions available for higher-level druids gain abilities more slowly.

(3) Use Leadership to attract a cohort to serve as a mount, as stated in DMG p205 and DMG p200. This option is open to all characters, not just paladins. If the paladin already has a special mount, he takes a -2 penalty to his Leadership score. The mount is a cohort, not a special mount - it does not gain abilities tied to the paladin's level.

(4) Use the Paladin Cohort Mount option on DMG p200. The cohort attracted by the paladin gains the abilities of a special mount of the paladin's level. This adds an additional +2 LA (minimum) to the cohort mount's ECL as it is more powerful than the cohort mount in option (3), but presumably the paladin does not take a -2 penalty to his Leadership score since the cohort is the special mount.

Options (2), (3) and (4) are of course subject to DM approval.

From the looks of your example, you're going for option (4). The DMG is unclear about how the Special Mount abilities are added to the cohort, and it can be argued that a paladin could add the Special Mount abilities for a standard mount of his level to whatever cohort he can attract with his Leadership feat, after taking into account the +2 LA.

However, this interpretation may be too good. By this rule, an 18th-level Small paladin with Cha 20 and a Leadership score of 23 could have a bonded Very Young Silver Dragon mount with 18HD, including the bonus HD for being the mount of a 18th-level paladin.

I am thinking that the following may be a more balanced interpretation of the rules:

The paladin can use the Leadership feat to attract a cohort to serve as a mount as normal, without the +2 LA under option (4) or the -2 to Leadership score for having a bonded mount, but the minimum level at which the paladin can attract the mount as a cohort sets the baseline for the mount's Special Mount abilities. Its bonuses to HD, Natural Armour, Str and Int and other special abilities then follow the table on DMG p205.

 

[Artoomis]

The paladin can use the Leadership feat to attract a cohort to serve as a mount as normal, without the +2 LA under option (4) or the -2 to Leadership score for having a bonded mount, but the minimum level at which the paladin can attract the mount as a cohort sets the baseline for the mount's Special Mount abilities. Its bonuses to HD, Natural Armour, Str and Int and other special abilities then follow the table on DMG p205.

Gee - that makes a lot of sense. It unfortunately does not track with what's in the DMG - things like a

Celestial Horse = 4HD + 2LA = 6, should be at7th level, but it's at 6th.
Dire Wolf - At 6th level, but it's 6HD so it should be at 7th.
Hippogriff = 3HD with no LA (but flying should be +1). Should perhpas be at 5th, but it's at 6th.
Large monstrous spider = 4HD, again shoul be 5th but is 6th.
Large shark = 7 HD (should be 8th, but is 6th).

Darn. It just does not match up.

I wonder if the Leadership feat can be used to essentially lower the penalty. I think the Half-Celestial Riodidng Dog should be at 7th level, but maybe it can be lowered by one level by using the leadership feat.

This is more-or-less recreating the leadership feat into an improved special mount feat, I guess.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally posted by Artoomis
Your point about the intelligence is a good one. The mount in this case cannot have intelligence above two until after being a paladin's mount, but, given the way mounts work now, I figured that the mount "template" and the half-celestial template could potentially happen at the same time, with the requirement for the leadership feat being the balancing factor.

A creature is Half-Celestial because a Celestial mated with its parent. Celestials aren't really into bestiality, apparently. So, the fact that your riding dog has gained intelligence due to being called as a Paladin's mount (a process that takes place AFTER its birth) precludes being a Half-Celestial.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that the dog's mother was ALSO a Paladin's mount, and therefore had intelligence. But no, I'd never allow that sort of rules fudging to get around one of the inherent limitations of a template.

Of course, if the original dog was built using a system where you get to create it with a point value (or random method) with racial stat modifiers, then above +2 is possible.

No, it isn't. There's a reason "Int 3+" is a requirement for so many things, and there's a reason a negative racial modifier can't take you below 3.
(All of the following is based on the DMG, p. 23
"This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence of less than 3 are not playable characters."
Even if you DO allow it, note that stats less than 10 do not use straight -X modifiers. That's what tables 2-5 and 2-6 are for. A creature with an average racial Intelligence of 3, for example, will ALWAYS have an Intelligence of 3, no matter what you roll.

Basically, the line between INT 2 and INT 3 is "sentience". Either your species has it, or it doesn't. There's no way to cross that line in either direction just by rolling well or badly. If you want to cross that line, you need the Awaken spell, or something similar.

As far as the half-celestial template being more powerful that celestial - well, that's true. In comparing all the creature listed in the DMG, though, it seemed like it was a bit more powerful than most of those listed as 1-level delayed, but less powerful than those listed as 2-levels delayed.

Compare the level adjustment for cohorts to what it'd be for a PC.
Blink dog: LA +4 for players (DMG, p. 22), but only +2 for cohorts (3.5 SRD).
Unicorn: LA +6 for players (DMG), +4 for cohorts.
Giant Eagle and Giant Owl are both ECL ~5 races for players, but are only +2 for cohorts.

Anyway, there's no way I'd say a +4 ECL race would be balanced as a +1 LA for cohorts. Especially compare it to a Blink Dog; you're trading one ECL+4 thing for another, they're both dogs...

 

[FireLance]

Gee - that makes a lot of sense. It unfortunately does not track with what's in the DMG - things like a

(Examples snipped)

Darn. It just does not match up.

I wonder if the Leadership feat can be used to essentially lower the penalty. I think the Half-Celestial Riodidng Dog should be at 7th level, but maybe it can be lowered by one level by using the leadership feat.

This is more-or-less recreating the leadership feat into an improved special mount feat, I guess.

Thinking it over, there may be some method to the various options in the PH and the DMG.

The standard option allows for horses and the unusual mounts option on DMG p204 allows for other mounts, but almost all of these mounts have a base Int of 2 or lower (the griffon is one exception) and thus cannot be attracted with the Leadership feat.

The Leadership option allows the paladin to attract a cohort with a higher Int to serve as a mount, and the Cohort Mount option allows a paladin to bond with his cohort as a Special Mount.

Thus, the unusual mounts option is not a sample list of the mounts you can attract with Leadership, and might actually be better in some instances, e.g. a griffon is the equivalent of a 10th-level cohort, but may serve as the special mount of a 8th-level paladin (iirc).

However, if you want another type of mount (a dragon, for example), you need to use the Leadership feat to attract it.

That said, I don't see any problems with a feat that allows a paladin to attract a better mount than he would otherwise be entitled to for his level.

 

[Artoomis]

Originally posted by Spatzimaus
A creature is Half-Celestial because a Celestial mated with its parent. Celestials aren't really into bestiality, apparently. So, the fact that your riding dog has gained intelligence due to being called as a Paladin's mount (a process that takes place AFTER its birth) precludes being a Half-Celestial.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that the dog's mother was ALSO a Paladin's mount, and therefore had intelligence. But no, I'd never allow that sort of rules fudging to get around one of the inherent limitations of a template.

Well, one parent could've been a celestial dog and the other an awakened dog. Perfectly legal, if a bit contrived. Such things sometimes happen in the cosmos - call it fate, if you like, that such an event would happen.

It does not seem to be too much of a stretch for such a thing to happen for a 16th level Paladin, I think.

Then again, perhaps the mount simply springs into being as the diety wishes. After all, under the new rules the mount exists on some other plane, so who knows?

The only question then is if the leadership feat is sufficient to make this only a 1 level adjustment for the mount "stuff" rather than 2 as it might otherwise be.

On Thursday night I can look at DotF to see how this sort of thing is presented in there. I guess I'll bide my time until then.

 

[Artoomis]

How's this for a background story?

The History of Perrigo – Half-Celestial Riding Dog Paladin's Mount

Note: Odif is Gibley's paladin's mount – a celestial riding dog.

Ever wondered what a paladin's mount does it its off-time? Well, wonder no more.

About 2 years ago before the present time, Odif met a particularly comely and personable awakened lady dog by the name of Koetje. It seems that a druid had need of a companion of modest size, and could not have picked a better companion than Koetje. Odif was lucky enough that his master, Gibley, was destined to be nearby for some weeks during one of his adventures, wherein he… ah, but that's another story.

Well, as you might imagine, romance was in the air. Despite knowing that Odif's duties would require him to leave, they had a passionate love affair.

Some months later, Koetje was blessed with the birth of Perrigo, a most extraordinary creature. Perrigo is a half-celestial riding dog. Well, Koetje regaled Perrigo with many stories of Odif (brief though their romance was), and Perrigo is now determined to take over Odif's duties as an oath-sworn mount to Gibley, a paladin of some reknown. Perrigo feels strongly both that he is up to the task and that Odif should be free to live with his lady-love, should the gods and Gibley allow it.

So Perrigo journies on to give his parents the greatest gift he can – a reunion that will last for life. He hopes that when he finds Gibley, that Gibley will accept his offer of servitude in the place of Odif. This, he believes, is his destiny.