[3.5] Rangers lose medium armor!
- Thread starter Olgar Shiverstone
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Tom Cashel
First Post
This thread should have been closed yesterday.
...Although the spectacle of watching New York/Australian virtual word-wrasslin' is an entertaining sight.
I'm off the Meta to make a request!
...Although the spectacle of watching New York/Australian virtual word-wrasslin' is an entertaining sight.
I'm off the Meta to make a request!
Tom Cashel
First Post
Take my word for it, the
Revised edition will have plenty to argue about.
Oh, when will it be released?
Let loose upon the world--so we can all
Lose our tempers with good reason.
Revised edition will have plenty to argue about.
Oh, when will it be released?
Let loose upon the world--so we can all
Lose our tempers with good reason.
Tom Cashel
First Post
3.5's Design Motto:
"No matter how high the crow flies, you can still break a window with an axe."
"No matter how high the crow flies, you can still break a window with an axe."
Re: Re: Re
His Max saves at 20th level will be +14 Fort/+8 Reflex/+5 Will compared to +12 Fort/+6 Reflex/+6 Will. Which would you rather have? Fort saves are often more deadly than will. At higher level you can obtain a Ring of Free Action or Freedom of Movement to deal with holds. You can get a Protection from Evil spell to deal with domination by evil casters.
True. Didn't feel like putting a neutral.
Yep, not too big a deal. More of a benefit for the Barbarian class. At best, a fighter would probably use Track to enhance someone elses roll.
Overstated? How do you overstate something that is simple fact. For those two levels, I listed beneficial changes. Period. There is no way to understate nor overstate their impact. That is you get for two levels of Ranger.
See above for why a -1 on Will save can be given up for 2 extra on Fort and Reflex save.
You will, but I would gladly make the exchange for a higher Spot and Listen skill, no loss of Base Attack, and a better Reflex and Fort save immediately felt at lower level. I can wait two extra levels for the other feats.
Or Halfling. Most multi-class Rangers previously were human or half-elf depnding on how they multi-classed. Heck, from what I understand most people play Humans followed by elves and half-elves.
How so? A leve 18 Rogue/level 2 Ranger will get their BAB faster and gain an extra iterative attack at the highest level. Or did you forget?
The misrepresentation is on your part for failing to show that your BA improves by one point throughout your levels as well as gaining an extra iterative attack at level 20. A good tradeoff.
I'll admit, the track feat will have diminishing returns for two levels of Ranger. A rogue could easily add more and greatly improve their class.
Once again, at 20th level a rogues saves will be +8 Fort/+14 Reflex/+5 Will.
They lose one point on an already poor save that they can counter with magic item use to gain favorable saves in Fort, a more dangerous save to fail, and Reflex, a save that allows to avoid traps and area damage spells even easier. Its like gaining two levels of Trap Sense that work against anything that gives a Reflex save.
The impact is immediately felt so that at 4th level, a Rogue 2/Ranger 2 has the following saves +3 Fort/+6 Reflex/+0 Will compared to +1 Fort/+4 Reflex/+1 Will. Gains 2 on Fort and Reflex.
Not at all overstated, a definite benefit all the way to 20th.
I think all these concerns are vastly overstated. Many people would delay such special abilities to gain the benefits and have done so.
Yes. So what again was the reason for the change? It is equally as, and I would say more, attractive to multiclass a Ranger compared to before.
What was I saying? I think is you who are missing the point.
No, you really can't.
You seem to be misinterpreting my conclusion. It is simply the following:
1. The Ranger has neither become a more viable single class character nor a less attractive multiclass character. So what was the reason for the change again?
Get it yet Bryon.
I don't know what you think I am saying, but you probably aren't right judging from the way you critiqued my analysis.
All the cons you listed are the cons any multiclass character has to deal with from the beginning of 3rd edition. I didn't list them because you have to put things in terms of tangible benefits and losses that will exist throughout the life of the character.
Very few of the cons you listed will last throughout the life of the character. They will be delayed. While the benefits and cons that I listed will affect the character permanently, throughout the entire life of the character. The obvious cons of multiclassing are delayed special abilities. I didn't think I needed to list them, everyone knows this.
There you go Tom. Easier for you to read.
BryonD said:
His Max saves at 20th level will be +14 Fort/+8 Reflex/+5 Will compared to +12 Fort/+6 Reflex/+6 Will. Which would you rather have? Fort saves are often more deadly than will. At higher level you can obtain a Ring of Free Action or Freedom of Movement to deal with holds. You can get a Protection from Evil spell to deal with domination by evil casters.
True. Didn't feel like putting a neutral.
Yep, not too big a deal. More of a benefit for the Barbarian class. At best, a fighter would probably use Track to enhance someone elses roll.
Overstated? How do you overstate something that is simple fact. For those two levels, I listed beneficial changes. Period. There is no way to understate nor overstate their impact. That is you get for two levels of Ranger.
See above for why a -1 on Will save can be given up for 2 extra on Fort and Reflex save.
You will, but I would gladly make the exchange for a higher Spot and Listen skill, no loss of Base Attack, and a better Reflex and Fort save immediately felt at lower level. I can wait two extra levels for the other feats.
Or Halfling. Most multi-class Rangers previously were human or half-elf depnding on how they multi-classed. Heck, from what I understand most people play Humans followed by elves and half-elves.
How so? A leve 18 Rogue/level 2 Ranger will get their BAB faster and gain an extra iterative attack at the highest level. Or did you forget?
The misrepresentation is on your part for failing to show that your BA improves by one point throughout your levels as well as gaining an extra iterative attack at level 20. A good tradeoff.
I'll admit, the track feat will have diminishing returns for two levels of Ranger. A rogue could easily add more and greatly improve their class.
Once again, at 20th level a rogues saves will be +8 Fort/+14 Reflex/+5 Will.
They lose one point on an already poor save that they can counter with magic item use to gain favorable saves in Fort, a more dangerous save to fail, and Reflex, a save that allows to avoid traps and area damage spells even easier. Its like gaining two levels of Trap Sense that work against anything that gives a Reflex save.
The impact is immediately felt so that at 4th level, a Rogue 2/Ranger 2 has the following saves +3 Fort/+6 Reflex/+0 Will compared to +1 Fort/+4 Reflex/+1 Will. Gains 2 on Fort and Reflex.
Not at all overstated, a definite benefit all the way to 20th.
I think all these concerns are vastly overstated. Many people would delay such special abilities to gain the benefits and have done so.
Yes. So what again was the reason for the change? It is equally as, and I would say more, attractive to multiclass a Ranger compared to before.
What was I saying? I think is you who are missing the point.
No, you really can't.
You seem to be misinterpreting my conclusion. It is simply the following:
1. The Ranger has neither become a more viable single class character nor a less attractive multiclass character. So what was the reason for the change again?
Get it yet Bryon.
I don't know what you think I am saying, but you probably aren't right judging from the way you critiqued my analysis.
All the cons you listed are the cons any multiclass character has to deal with from the beginning of 3rd edition. I didn't list them because you have to put things in terms of tangible benefits and losses that will exist throughout the life of the character.
Very few of the cons you listed will last throughout the life of the character. They will be delayed. While the benefits and cons that I listed will affect the character permanently, throughout the entire life of the character. The obvious cons of multiclassing are delayed special abilities. I didn't think I needed to list them, everyone knows this.
There you go Tom. Easier for you to read.
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Tom Cashel
First Post
I'm not reading all that!
Please watch your font tags, man. That much bolded text is hell on the eyes, y'know?
Please watch your font tags, man. That much bolded text is hell on the eyes, y'know?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re
We differ on our opinions of what the Ranger should be. Whatever.
We'll see what happens once folks start playing. I don't believe we will see much of a reduction in multiclass Rangers. They are the perfect multiclass now, even moreso than before for so many reasons.
hong said:
We differ on our opinions of what the Ranger should be. Whatever.
We'll see what happens once folks start playing. I don't believe we will see much of a reduction in multiclass Rangers. They are the perfect multiclass now, even moreso than before for so many reasons.
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