D&D 5E (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Clint_L]

This is the most ridiculous point to get stuck on - obviously action surge is intended to be an action hero kind of moment...but if it does let you do two of anything in a turn, could you use it to give yourself the help action? Be your own best friend?

 

[Minigiant]

This is the most ridiculous point to get stuck on - obviously action surge is intended to be an action hero kind of moment...but if it does let you do two of anything in a turn, could you use it to give yourself the help action? Be your own best friend?

What's is so bad about the fighter Helping 2 allies in combat?

You bash the shields of two orcs.

 

[NaturalZero]

In 40 years of d&d the fighter got 1 thing “double action once per short rest” and the caster players are all like “yo I need a carve out so he can’t use our thing if he gets it twice”

It's more of a concern about the spellcasters stealing something strong that's only a second level class dip.

 

[Pauln6]

It's more of a concern about the spellcasters stealing something strong that's only a second level class dip.

Exactly. Spellcasters can still cast a spell and then follow up with some other heroic action. Putting forward an argument that the low level fighter ability should make you a better wizard seems a bit disingenuous.

 

[Mistwell]

I just listened to the newest Treantmonk optimization release on Patreon (which will hit YouTube for free not too long from now).

He is reviewing the new fighter.

Spoilers!

He starts with the premise, having just read the class, that it's kind of meh. Now keep in mind, Treantmonk does optimization stuff for D&D now for a living. He crunches these numbers every day, plays a TON of games with other optimizers (and non-optimizers sometimes too), makes podcasts all the time, and you'd think if anyone would be good at glancing at new material and being able to figure out just from reading it if it's a big boost it would be him.

But, you can't really truly know until you do the number crunching and make the builds and compare them.

I really thought, going into this, he would come out pretty close to his initial impression. Which I must admit was my initial impression too, and I think the initial impression of a lot of people in this thread. Kinda meh. Yeah, some improvements, but not nearly enough. Crawford in his video promised a big jump in damage, and I was not seeing it.

I was wrong. Treantmonk's initial impression was wrong. All the comments here giving an initial impression the damage isn't really booted enough? Wrong.

Wow. There is SO MUCH interaction between all the new rules and the Fighter playtest that I was missing.

So Treantmonk did a build comparison and made his best Champion fighter under the new rules. Gave them Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master (the Great Weapon master is something you can no longer do with the new rules). You'd think the old Champion should outpace or at least be pretty close to the new one given that advantage of Great Weapon Master. NOPE!

The new Fighter was doing 50% more damage than the old one!

So then he figured he must be not giving the old fighter the right situation. We all know Great Weapon Master shines the most when they get advantage. So he tested it giving advantage to both the old and new versions and tried the numbers again.

The old fighter saw the expected jump in damage. However the new version? It was now 70% more damage than the old one!

And to be clear, he didn't even choose the most powerful of the Weapon Mastery options because he thinks it's overpowered and is assuming it will get nerfed. So he chose decent Weapon Masteries (I think it was Cleave and Nick). And it's a "choice" because the fighter (and maybe only the fighter) can change them around.

Yeah. There is stuff here I missed. Interactions with the new feats. Interactions with the new Weapon Masteries. Interactions with dying rules, saving throw rules, the levels you get certain things now, some re-wording on some class abilities and conditions, all sorts of stuff.

And this is just the damage portion. All kinds of stuff got a huge boost! With the new dying rules, and the new second wind, and the new higher level class features, the new fighter is going to be incredibly hard to kill. And it's really hard on initial read to see that. There is a whole bunch of subtle stuff that allows for the new fighter to just pop right back up from being knocked unconscious that is hard to see if you just straight read the new class.

Same for their saving throws. It's hard to see they're going to just outright change a failed save to a made save most of the time at higher levels sometimes.

And the feats. Oh my, the feats. So many feats now give a +1 to a stat, and the new fighter gets so many feats and at earlier levels than the old fighter. They are maxing out their primary stat much faster.

They're even better at skill usage than the old fighter. And with the feat changes, they have more options to boost that aspect while still dealing more damage. Because it wasn't even about the quantity of feats - it was about when you get them and the feats themselves and how you get more feats due to so many +1 feats now as options that you max out your main stat that much faster too.

Listening to this podcast I am wondering if I am doing this with all the new classes. If there isn't a bunch of stuff I am missing because I am not doing actual builds with all the new rules and seeing how all the new rules interact with the new class features and then running a comparison to an old version of the same class and seeing if there is a big change.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Talking damage to a good portion of people who have issues with the how the fighter is treated is a lot like telling someone dying of thirst how much dry instant oatmeal and salt they've got.

 

[Mistwell]

Talking damage to a good portion of people who have issues with the how the fighter is treated is a lot like telling someone dying of thirst how much dry instant oatmeal and salt they've got.

Did you miss the part about how they are better at skills and have a lot more room for customization with feats to improve the other areas of the game?

 

[Mistwell]

I can't agree about indomitable. It's still only 1/day - and that at a time when the fighters are already falling off in power so strong abilities are needed.

At 17th level, that changes again. Now you can use it five times.

The weapon masteries are a start. But I agree with you that more than one melee and one ranged weapon mastery you can swap with a long rest is a ribbon ability. Even the third is slightly redundant.

You put multiples on each weapon and they synergize, once you reach 13th level. So if you're fighting with two weapons at the same time for instance you could be using up to four masteries per round. And I think some of this will interact with feats. Not a ribbon ability, just more complicated than it looks one first read.

Honestly I'd rather (a) give all weapon masteries and (b) simply ditch fighting styles. Then for the fighter I'd rather give them the ability to add a mastery to their weapon and choose which to use as their first level thing. (I'd also buff the Versatile by a die size, and have Flex replace the old dueling style so it works out as effectively +2 damage).

And the new Champion actually does things! I think it's still weak - but it's not the absolute zero of the old version.

Its damage jumped apparently by 50% to 70%. Might be more powerful than you think. I know I was surprised once I heard build comparisons.

 

[Azzy]

Did you miss the part about how they are better at skills and have a lot more room for customization with feats to improve the other areas of the game?

In what way?

 

[Mistwell]

In what way?

First the Champion gets more skill abilities. Second they get a feat earlier than before, and have more built-in defense freeing room that had been used to create more defense with feats. And third the feats now have a lot more +1 ability score boosts, which maxes out the Fighter main stat quicker, which allows room for non-combat feats. In Treantmonk's build test he found his "new" fighter was THREE feats ahead of the 2014 fighter, while still doing MUCH more damage than the 2014 fighter, and all three feats could be non-combat ones. It allowed for a much more well-rounded fighter. And he didn't expect that result until he built some fighters and saw how they interacted with all the new rules.