D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Justice and Rule]

If it turns your sword into a magic sword, it is the result of magic.

And honestly, why not just give the fighter a straight increase in attack and damage rather than turn their sword into a magic sword?

Because a bunch of things require magic to hurt them. All the bonuses in the world don't matter if you can simply strip a fighter of their magical weapon and render them completely useless in a fight.

More than that, the idea that anything fantastical has to be "magical" is part of the problem, because it's incredibly limiting and inherently unbalancing. You box fighters and other martials into relying on magic weapons while casters get inherent power that doesn't need to be doled out by the GM.

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the cleric runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin casting a spell and in a flash of light, the paladin rises with his head intact. Weakened, the cleric falls to his knees."

"How did you do that?!" The rogue player asked.

"My deity saw my faith and answered my prayer. With divine intervention, they were able to heal."

Vs

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the rogue runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin to pull out their surgical equipment and in a few moments, the paladin rises with his head intact. The rogue swipes sweat from his eyebrows."

"How did you do that?!" The cleric player asked.

"Oh, I'm just really good at medicine."

...

Nah, sorry, can't do it. That'd just kill the moment.

Actually I think it's pretty damn awesome if someone went "How did you do that?" and he turned and went "I'm the best damn surgeon in the world". It's just as cool if not cooler than "Welp, just going to use my spell slot here to raise you up no problem". You can put all the fancy words behind it, but actually putting a skill check on it is way more exciting and rewarding because it shows the strength of the player and their expertise than just "Ah, well, I have this spell slot I can burn..."

And this is where this kind of opinion is going to be holding martials back from being interesting: you can describe anything as being fantastical, and when you only let magic enter that realm, you pigeonhole martials into a tiny box compared to the open world that magic allows for. It's just the wrong mindset and no amount of "reliability" is going to make martials catch up because you are limiting them to the mundane no matter what.

This is what I mean, yes.
90% of spells that inflict a status on the enemy requires a save.

A lot of spells require sight.

A lot of spells require targetting.

Commune has a chance to fail.

Teleport has a chance to fail.

Power Word Kill can fail.

Gate can fail.

Illusions can be seen through.

There are wards, barriers, and areas that can cause spells to fail in general.

There are spells dedicated to making spells fail.

There are many ways spells can just not work, but those spells are considered "bad" because they aren't guaranteed and only the spells with extremely good effects are even considered.
Apparently, we can't buff the martials. There's a certain threshold people are willing to let martials be buffed before the casters start having a fit.

And maybe we shouldn't baby casters. If they want to be able to control the fabric of reality the least they can do is understand that power comes with drawbacks.

And attacks can miss, be resisted, and even completely negated. To act like magic "fails" misses that it is often more likely to succeed given that DCs in the system advance while saves do not necessarily. Furthermore, you actually have the chance for amazing things with those, while even an assured Athletics check will only get me so far. This is just going to turn into Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit all over again.

 

[Eubani]

There was a time where casting was more difficult and punishing but WoTC removed that in lieu of simplicity but left a huge balance hole in its wake.

The influence of the SSS is everywhere and near unstoppable but stopped it must be.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Things I’m fine with purely non-magical martials doing at mid to high levels:

• Running faster than Olympic sprinters (without obviating monk speed)
• Gain the lift/drag/push of a huge creature (maybe colossal at very high level)
• Over-damage: when you deal more damage with a weapon attack than the tArget’s HP, you can carry the extra damage over to another creature as long as you can reach it, even if that requires you to move
• Jump, climb, swim, like an action hero. Specifics tbd
• Lethal: (stolen from the assassin) when you reduce a target to HP equal to your level or lower, they are reduced to 0, instead. When you reduce a target to half their HP and they are below CR X, they must make a con save or die
• Add some gear based stuff and better marking, better holding ground, etc
• Hide as part of movement/while not obscured/succeed automatically and creatures must try to find you
• Assassin types could make a skill check to determine how many guards/watchers/sentries, they can take out without raising an alarm, no need for initiative
• Barbarians should rage at-will at like level 14
• Strong PCs throw other creatures like 30/60ft, or much more if they have the super strength thing above, and strength adds to thrown weapon range regardless with max strength and a certain level meaning you can throw an axe 120ft accurately
• Weapon limitations go away for martial classes. Yeet that warhammer.
• Legendary actions and saves
• Gain resistence a and immunities and stuff like regen, depending on class and ability scores and whatever else
• Epic features for every skill depending on expertise and level
• Go into super mode in some way. Barbarian Rage stacks with this for super rage

Im sure there’s plenty more.

Some stuff wouldn’t be martial exclusive tho, like gaining social standing. For every fighter follower or titles there is a paladin’s squire or a wizard becoming counted Among The Wise.

 

[Asisreo]

Because a bunch of things require magic to hurt them. All the bonuses in the world don't matter if you can simply strip a fighter of their magical weapon and render them completely useless in a fight.

More than that, the idea that anything fantastical has to be "magical" is part of the problem, because it's incredibly limiting and inherently unbalancing. You box fighters and other martials into relying on magic weapons while casters get inherent power that doesn't need to be doled out by the GM.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time understanding how you have a fighter create a magic weapon and not be magical in their own right. That's like if the wizard cast a spell and the DM counterspelled and the wizard goes "oh, no. I didn't cast a spell, I just used my knowledge of magic to create a magical effect, but I didn't cast magic."

Actually I think it's pretty damn awesome if someone went "How did you do that?" and he turned and went "I'm the best damn surgeon in the world". It's just as cool if not cooler than "Welp, just going to use my spell slot here to raise you up no problem". You can put all the fancy words behind it, but actually putting a skill check on it is way more exciting and rewarding because it shows the strength of the player and their expertise than just "Ah, well, I have this spell slot I can burn..."

You might think its cool but it drains the tension out of the scene and you can't take the moment seriously anymore. It'd be like if you were watching an avengers movie and black widow stole the infinity gauntlet out of thanos' hands because she's "the best spy in the world."

And this is where this kind of opinion is going to be holding martials back from being interesting: you can describe anything as being fantastical, and when you only let magic enter that realm, you pigeonhole martials into a tiny box compared to the open world that magic allows for. It's just the wrong mindset and no amount of "reliability" is going to make martials catch up because you are limiting them to the mundane no matter what.

But you really can't describe anything as being fantastical and keep the tone you're going for. No matter what, a serious campaign can't exist with goofy hijinks no matter how epic you try to make it sound.

And attacks can miss, be resisted, and even completely negated. To act like magic "fails" misses that it is often more likely to succeed given that DCs in the system advance while saves do not necessarily. Furthermore, you actually have the chance for amazing things with those, while even an assured Athletics check will only get me so far. This is just going to turn into Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit all over again.

Okay, but I'm not talking about attacks. I'm talking about other uses for spell and martial features and there's plenty of room in the design space to give the martials the reliability without the skill check system, but even within the skill check system, there can be reliability.

Heck, there's sparks of that right now in 5e. Did you know a Barbarian is guaranteed to be able to break manacles at high levels? Sure, it isn't as epic as even I'd want it to be, but the groundwork is there and we can build from it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Things I’m fine with purely non-magical martials doing at mid to high levels:

• Running faster than Olympic sprinters (without obviating monk speed)
• Gain the lift/drag/push of a huge creature (maybe colossal at very high level)
• Over-damage: when you deal more damage with a weapon attack than the tArget’s HP, you can carry the extra damage over to another creature as long as you can reach it, even if that requires you to move
• Jump, climb, swim, like an action hero. Specifics tbd
• Lethal: (stolen from the assassin) when you reduce a target to HP equal to your level or lower, they are reduced to 0, instead. When you reduce a target to half their HP and they are below CR X, they must make a con save or die
• Add some gear based stuff and better marking, better holding ground, etc
• Hide as part of movement/while not obscured/succeed automatically and creatures must try to find you
• Assassin types could make a skill check to determine how many guards/watchers/sentries, they can take out without raising an alarm, no need for initiative
• Barbarians should rage at-will at like level 14
• Strong PCs throw other creatures like 30/60ft, or much more if they have the super strength thing above, and strength adds to thrown weapon range regardless with max strength and a certain level meaning you can throw an axe 120ft accurately
• Weapon limitations go away for martial classes. Yeet that warhammer.
• Legendary actions and saves
• Gain resistence a and immunities and stuff like regen, depending on class and ability scores and whatever else
• Epic features for every skill depending on expertise and level
• Go into super mode in some way. Barbarian Rage stacks with this for super rage

Im sure there’s plenty more.

Some stuff wouldn’t be martial exclusive tho, like gaining social standing. For every fighter follower or titles there is a paladin’s squire or a wizard becoming counted Among The Wise.

Another thing id readily consider is just giving the fighter, rogue, Barbarian, and monk, more class features. Like at least one more at each tier.

Maybe combine with the stuff above. Heroic Legends. Level 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 16, 18, 20. Pick a martial heroic legend feature that you qualify for.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You might think it’s cool but it drains the tension out of the scene and you can't take the moment seriously anymore. It'd be like if you were watching an avengers movie and black widow stole the infinity gauntlet out of thanos' hands because she's "the best spy in the world."

That would have been a great moment. And would have made more sense than Stark doing it, although Starks moment was epic.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time understanding how you have a fighter create a magic weapon and not be magical in their own right. That's like if the wizard cast a spell and the DM counterspelled and the wizard goes "oh, no. I didn't cast a spell, I just used my knowledge of magic to create a magical effect, but I didn't cast magic."

Because that's how the wizard channels the fantastical: through magic. But why not do it through knowledge? You know enough things about the esoteric arcane that you can come up with a solution? I don't see the problem. That's just being fantasy Batman. The same with a warrior: they channel the fantastical through their fighting skill. Maybe certain people might need magical weapons to hurt something, but the high-level warrior cuts so cleanly that he can get through even magical defenses. You define this as a "magical effect", but it's not if it doesn't involve magic. Again, the fantastical isn't necessarily magical unless you let it be.

You might think its cool but it drains the tension out of the scene and you can't take the moment seriously anymore. It'd be like if you were watching an avengers movie and black widow stole the infinity gauntlet out of thanos' hands because she's "the best spy in the world."

I mean, Iron Man steals the gems from Thanos, why not? Why can't the thief be that good? And I don't understand your argument about tension: requiring a skill check adds tension because it can fail, but something like Raise Dead is just automatic. It's just spending a spell slot to do something automatically, no matter how much flowery language you add to it. There's no tension there because there is no risk. Like, why can't that party member be the greatest tailor in the world?

But you really can't describe anything as being fantastical and keep the tone you're going for. No matter what, a serious campaign can't exist with goofy hijinks no matter how epic you try to make it sound.

Doing fantastical things without magic doesn't make things hijinks, it just means your characters are inherently fantastical. You can have a serious campaign where the barbarian can shake the earth with a stomp or cause a lesser man to die simply with his battle cry without it being all jokes. If you can't do that seriously, then I find your idea of "serious" to be very limited.

Okay, but I'm not talking about attacks. I'm talking about other uses for spell and martial features and there's plenty of room in the design space to give the martials the reliability without the skill check system, but even within the skill check system, there can be reliability.

No, you don't understand: reliability doesn't matter when you can't do anything interesting with it. Who cares if you can always knock a door down when you have someone in your party who can walk through walls. Your design space is already so small that it doesn't matter because nothing you do is going to be particularly satisfying.

Heck, there's sparks of that right now in 5e. Did you know a Barbarian is guaranteed to be able to break manacles at high levels? Sure, it isn't as epic as even I'd want it to be, but the groundwork is there and we can build from it.

This is what I'm talking about. That is amazingly lame and limited given that spellcasters can alter reality at higher levels. That's not a groundwork, that's just bad and we shouldn't look towards it. If my reward for being 20th level is that I can bend iron bars consistently while the guy next to me can cast Wish, what are we even doing? Let fighters be like Wuxia heroes, where they can jump fantastic distances, bat away volleys of arrows, stymy battalions of soldiers. I don't understand this weird, artificial barrier we set out, especially when it is apparently built on the idea of "seriousness".

 

[Stalker0]

You say "easy DC 14" but I would argue at least 30% of the time someone does not know what their DC is on a battlemaster maneuver. At least 30%, and this will be no different.

I will echo this. My players NEVER EVER EVER remember their save dcs, like its silly how often they have to check them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time understanding how you have a fighter create a magic weapon and not be magical in their own right

Happens in dnd fiction. Breunor Battlehammer isn’t magic, but he creates a magic warhammer of yeeting for his homie Wulfgar anyway.

I see no reason magic item forging can’t be a ritual with certain components that go into the crafting, no magic of your own required. Especially a +X weapon.

 

[Stalker0]

This debate about Martials has raged as long as there has been Dnd. Its always been split between those who want high level Martials like Captain America, and those that want Martials more like Thor.

But everyone....there is no fight here, because WOTC has chosen a side, they are team Cap. So you might get them to budge a bit on the power level of martials, and you can get in a few spellcaster nerfs, but there will not be any 4e like martial manuevers where fighters are suddenly doing the utterly fantastical, its just not going to happen. And any debate trying to get it to that point is just wasted electrons.

I think the best we could hope for beyond what they are doing, is maybe get an extra Epic Boon or something....which is a pretty nice something. But in no scenario are you going to see massive sweeping changes, its just not going to happen.