D&D 4E 4E is like WoW (NOT!)

[Deep Blue 9000]

I know this thread isn't really treading new ground, but figured I'd chime in to help raise the poor horse from the dead. As an avid WoW player and D&D player I always find these MMO statements bewildering as well. You can find any kind of similarities in games that you want to see. Ultimately I suspect reactions like this are in the "gut" category as a response to change.

The underlying question really is this: Is it bad game design to borrow good ideas from other games be it board, video, card, dice, kick-the-can, tag, sport, jenga, or drinking? IMO the focus of discussion should be on whether the mechanic works for your game, not it's source of inspiration.

There's no disagreement over whether the mechanic (doesn't) works for D&D. No one thinks replacing the GM making decisions for monsters with an aggro system is a good idea. The disagreement is over whether or not 4e is incorporating this bad mechanic.

 

[Incenjucar]

Shadow Bolt isn't even like Eldritch Blast. It's more like an evil Kameyameya.

 

[AllisterH]

Same thing.

Keterys said it best.

This is what is so "smash head against wall". The spell has pretty much no connection to the WoW yet people honestly believe "Oh, D&D is ripping off WoW" Especially when as keterys pointed out, the WoW spell looks like it directly steals from the D&D model.

ARGH!. How are they even slgihtly similar?

re:Aggro mechanic.
Serious question. If you were designing D&D, how would you model the goal of a fighter protecting the weaker members of the party. Remember, this is a turn-based game so the fighter can't simply intercept the opponent a la Real-time AND the fighter isn't more dangerous/easily damaged than the squishy mage.

 

[takasi]

Shadowbolt and arcane missile are very different spells in WoW. Arcane missiles is also very much a copy of magic missile from older editions of D&D, down to the maximum of 5 missiles per cast... something _not_ present in 4e.

They're not that different at low levels.

So... this is like the dwarf/elf joke, but without the joking. *boggles*

If dwarves in 4e had blunderbusses and all elves were dark skinned and from the jungle, then IMO there wouldn't be a joke. It's just an observation of which elements in 4E are obviously influenced from Blizzard's innovations in the genre.

 

[takasi]

Keterys said it best.

This is what is so "smash head against wall". The spell has pretty much no connection to the WoW yet people honestly believe "Oh, D&D is ripping off WoW" Especially when as keterys pointed out, the WoW spell looks like it directly steals from the D&D model.

ARGH!. How are they even slgihtly similar?

In prior versions of D&D, the color of a magic missile was not detailed, it was an automatic hit and it was only available a few times per day.

In WoW, the missile has the same color every time, there's a chance it doesn't effect targets and there is no limit to the number of castings per day.

In 4th edition, it's described as a 'silvery' bolt, there's a chance it doesn't effect targets and there is no limit to the number of casting per day.

The ability to fight and rest for a few minutes and get most of your powers back also simulates the WoW feel. And that can be a very good thing, IMO.

 

[Lackhand]

In prior versions of D&D, the color of a magic missile was not detailed, it was an automatic hit and it was only available a few times per day.

The repetition is a lie!
Magic missiles were golden.

 

[AllisterH]

Hmm? Unlimited arcane missile?

Arcane Missile is considered one of the most mana-hungry mage spells around and that's not even factoring in that it is a channeled spell.

 

[keterys]

The funny thing is that they floated a 3rd ed version of magic missile that wasn't auto hit, but changed it on playtest... I wonder if that was copying WoW.

Oh, wait, it was _5 years before WoW came out_.

WoW shadowbolt is a 3 second cast that takes longer to cast when you're hit (and does absolutely nothing until you do), does shadow damage, and can crit once. Talented, which it should be, it puts a debuff on the target that makes them take 20% more shadow damage (helping out your team mates), casts in 2.5 seconds, has a 36 yard range. Also, this type of spell can be screwed by people jumping out of LOS right before cast, making the whole thing wasted.

It is at will in the sense that you can consume your own hit points to power more of them...

WoW Arcane Missiles is a 5 second cast that fires 1 missile every second, damage ends the spell early but does not prevent damage already done and allows you to just start a new cast, and each missile has a chance to crit on its own which makes it great for effects which trigger on crits. It has 30 yard range and _tracks_ targets so they can't just run through you to avoid it. Talented, it's _far_ more likely to affect targets (and actually used to be autohit), you're immune to push back, and it does significantly less threat so you're less likely to be attacked.

It's at will in the sense that it's one of the most mana inefficient spells unless you chain it with effects that help you regain mana or spec specifically to maintain it.

So, yeah, in the same way that Fireball and Shout are the same, sure. I mean, they both do damage and require a save.

 

[takasi]

In summary, WoW's difference is damage type and a little bit of range. DPS in D&D is simulated by the amount of damage dealt, and in the same given time period a starting arcane missile and shadow bolt do about the same amount. Nearly identical.

And that brings up another point about WoW's influence. In WoW, every warlock and wizard start out with these spells. There is no choice; it's the staple go to in the beginning of the game. We haven't seen what's available for wizards yet, but IF the selection has been significantly narrowed in comparison to 3.5 then there is another connection between WoW and 4E.

 

[Dacileva]

I agree with the OP, but wanted to point a couple things out.

• Class roles like Striker (DPS), Defender (Tank), Leader (Healer/Buffer), and Controller (CC).

This is a legitimate similarity, but a sorely-needed one. In 3.x and earlier, party makeup could often end up with redundant characters due to its lack.

• Marking foes (hunter's mark, raid marking).

Hunter's Mark has a 3.x equivalent in Spell Compendium that is far more like the WoW ability than 4e's marking system is. Also, like someone else said, raid marking is actually purely-metagame, with no game benefits associated at all.

• Abilities that let the tanks hold aggro.

This is also a legitimate comparison, and a sorely-needed ability. Controlling the battlefield wasn't nearly as possible in 3.x, which many people saw as a problem.

The example you mention isn't a good parallel between D&D and WoW. Having monsters running in to join the fight and aid their compatriots is just what you would expect in a D&D game. What is WoW-like (and unrealistic) is for mobs to stand there not helping their buddies because they are out of aggro range, even if they are in line of sight. They just ignore you slaughtering their 3 friends, but will attack as soon as you get closer to them.

And depending on your level disparity and whether they're social-aggro monsters, you could be killing their buddies within fifteen feet of them without an eye bat.

I have played MMORPGs including WoW for a number of years, and I don't think D&D is in any danger of turning into WoW. Except for the big shoulder armor.

Nah, the D&D shoulder armor doesn't make me cry out for a "Hide Shoulders" option the way WoW's shoulder armor does.

WTB better-looking armor for WoW warriors.