4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

I have pencilled down some ideas for what Portfolios I want in my 4E Immortals Handbook and Immortals Handbook II. With 14 Portfolios in each book. Eight of which will sort of be extensions of the PHB classes.

I have been starting to wonder if some portfolios should only have single roles (striker, controller, leader, defender) and others multiple roles.

For instance I might just make the War portfolio 100% defender, whereas the Fire portfolio might better suit multiple roles.

You could do this, although limiting it in this way is somewhat arbitrary. War could as easily be about controlling, or about striking, or about leading. Fire can likewise be used to control (wall of fire) or heal (hearth) or strike (fireball).

That's not to say that it's a bad idea to make each portfolio have a single role. It'd certainly make design a lot easier, and if its easier, it might come out sooner!

The beauty of 4E is that you can break the rules and be balanced (as contradictory as that sounds) by limiting the break to one round and stuff like that.

Well, we'll see how it tests out. It gives that extra round of actions to your entire party. Still for only one round, but if there's some way to regain a daily, then the problem will accelerate.

Naturally I'll have to get myself familiar with them so I can be assured my Legendary and Immortal Tier powers trump them. ;)

I still think that Demigod is the upper bound of power, so if you make things more powerful than that, you should be plenty in the clear.

I thnk these alternate ascension methods would probably create Resonance areas.

So... they'd vanish from the world, create a resonance zone, then return and siphon of the zone? I'm not sure how this'd work...
 

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Hey there Alzrius! :)

(trying to post over the past few nights and ENWorld kept kicking me out after about 15 minutes).

I know you have looked at the revised GSL, just curious about your thoughts?

I'm sorry U_K, I just now saw this post of yours. This is what I get for paying so little attention to the 4E thread. :-S

In regards to the new GSL, I've looked at the side-by-side comparison done by Roger Carbol, and there seem to be four major areas of change. The first is that the SRD has been updated, with the GSL noting which books have been added. The second is that you may now produce "derivative" artwork of monsters (with several specific exceptions), the third one is that licensees may terminate their GSL participation at will, and the fourth is that there's no longer a clause regarding not-using products of the same "line" under the OGL if you use the GSL.

Overall, my thoughts about the new revisions can be summed up as "a tiny step forward." I'll try to go over this in more detail in regards to each of the four substantial updates:

New SRD Materials

It's nice that they added the new materials to the SRD; that's always a good thing. However, the use of this is largely undercut by the fact that you cannot reprint nor "redefine" things included under the GSL. All the expanded SRD really does is allow you to note new classes or monsters from the newer books, and make a note of which new book they're in (and you can't even list the page number, just something like "bard 7; see the PHB2" and the list of bard powers he took).

This, then, really seems like it's of minor use to publishers. Yes, you can take advantage of new 4E books...except you can't really reprint them, forcing you to assume that the players have access to that information. If your adventure has a bard, as noted above, you better hope someone has a PHB2, or access to the DDI, and has already made a full stat block for that NPC, because they're not going to be able to use that material otherwise. This will get worse as more splatbooks come out, which honestly seems like a roundabout way of forcing people to rely more on the DDI, since that'll be the easiest resource where everything will be in one place. In other words, this is of far less worth to third-parties than it otherwise seems.

Artwork

You're actually allowed to make artwork of the monsters now! Of course, there are a number of exceptions to this, but it's more than it was before. For most third-parties, this won't be a big deal, as the emphasis will be placed on new monsters for quite a while anyway. Still, it's good that you can at least make that succubus picture if you really want to. This is a definite step forward, though the restriction on archetypal D&D monsters does seem almost like a throwback to the old d20 STL (in spirit, at least).

Licensees May Terminate

This is somewhat better than it was, where you couldn't end your GSL agreement at all before. However, again, I'm not seeing what the major practical effect is here. Section 10.2 notes that sections 9-20 of the GSL will ALL survive the termination of the license, no matter who terminates it. This means that even after you quit using the GSL, you're still bound to help WotC protect their IP (section 9.3), defend and indemnify WotC in court (section 13), waive any kind of jury trail whatsoever, or any other kind of legal action outside of the state of Washington (section 18), and more.

I also consider the usefulness of voluntary severance on the part of the licensee to be rather undercut - consider, WotC may update the GSL at any time, and in doing so change any part of it (section 2), making you bound by the new terms. Technically, you can terminate your license as per section 10.1 if you don't like the changes. However, this is predicated on "A) ceasing use of all Licensed Materials, or B ) delivering to Wizards and executed 'Termination Notice' ". The problem with this is that, if you're a PDF publisher, and you don't immediately stop selling PDFs when a new change comes out, you could very well unknowingly give away clause A, above - after all, you didn't cease selling License Materials after the new changes came out; hence, you're bound by whatever new terms are in the GSL.

Now, none of this seems very likely. WotC has been fairly straight with the third-party community so far. That said, it is still a legal possibility, and none of us knows what might happen in the future; whether it's a change in policy or leadership at WotC, an order from Hasbro, or what. You're basically at their mercy, from a legal standpoint.

OGL Use

This is the big one that'll have the largest practical effect on publishers. The GSL no longer mentions the OGL in any regard, freeing you in that aspect. Hence, you can make direct 4E conversions of 3.5 products and sell them under the same title and product line. You could even make a product that uses both 3.5 and 4E mechanics in it, though the FAQ notes that this would be very difficult to do.

Needless to say, this is great, because it doesn't cut you off from existing products you've already made, nor selling 3.5 versions of 4E products, etc. This is the only change that doesn't seem to be either largely invalidated by other sections, and is very welcome in that regard.

Summary

So, altogether, what has the revised GSL given to the third-party community? Well, a few more 4E references which you can't really put to good use, allowance to make artwork of most existing monsters, you can voluntarily terminate your license with it (assuming they don't get technical on you) but you'll still be bound by more than half of its clauses, and you don't have to give up any OGL products or product lines. And of course, a lot of the other uglier points like the vague blanket prohibition on adult or offensive content, or their ability to change things at will without notification, are still there.

Overall, this is an improvement, but only in regards to OGL products, and I suppose in making new artwork of monsters. The termination clause and new SRD material have very little practical impact, and don't seem to really make any real improvements at all. Is the new GSL better? Yes, undeniably, but to such a degree that it's really only a tiny step forward.
 
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Hi Fieari mate! :)

Fieari said:
You could do this, although limiting it in this way is somewhat arbitrary. War could as easily be about controlling, or about striking, or about leading. Fire can likewise be used to control (wall of fire) or heal (hearth) or strike (fireball).

I'm in two minds about this at the moment. I'll maybe do a study of various gods to see if there is a wide variety of roles amongst various portfolios. In mythology I don't think there is, but in modern fantasy I imagine there is.

That's not to say that it's a bad idea to make each portfolio have a single role. It'd certainly make design a lot easier, and if its easier, it might come out sooner!

Thats always going to be my achilles heel.

Well, we'll see how it tests out. It gives that extra round of actions to your entire party. Still for only one round, but if there's some way to regain a daily, then the problem will accelerate.

Thats true.

I still think that Demigod is the upper bound of power, so if you make things more powerful than that, you should be plenty in the clear.

Cool. Of course its no problem upping the math, so that bits easy. Then you have the new energy types so again theres more flexibility. Additionally I have some new status effects.

But the key will be how far I bend the rules.

So... they'd vanish from the world, create a resonance zone, then return and siphon of the zone? I'm not sure how this'd work...

No I'm thinking they'd create a resonance zone and that would be the end of them, but that the DM might allow the same player to create a new PC that finds this zone/object etc.
 

Hi Alzrius dude! :)

No worries about not replying sooner - I am not one to preach about tardiness. :o

Just to confirm, the new GSL would allow me to publish 4E and 3.5E versions of the same product simultaneously...correct?

If so, that may mean Godsend would not necessarily be my final 3.5E product and thus I wouldn't have to finish it before releasing some 4E material.
 

If so, that may mean Godsend would not necessarily be my final 3.5E product and thus I wouldn't have to finish it before releasing some <ACRONYM title="D&D 4th Edition">4E</ACRONYM> material.

Oh, please, Lord, say it's so!

Also, U_K, this is a little off topic, but are your current books not availible for purchase at the moment? I have someone over at the WotC epic 3.5 board who's interested but all the links from your site say they don't carry them anymore.
 

Hi Alzrius dude! :)

No worries about not replying sooner - I am not one to preach about tardiness. :o

Yeah, but I like to complain about that, something I can't do if I'm late in getting things done myself. ;)

Just to confirm, the new GSL would allow me to publish 4E and 3.5E versions of the same product simultaneously...correct?

Indeed correct.

The revised GSL does away with all limitations on using the OGL completely; in fact, it doesn't even mention "OGL" at any point within the license. Ergo, you could publish a 3.5 version of a book under the OGL, and a 4E version of the exact same book, title and product line and all, under the GSL.

The one caveat to beware of, however, is if you want to use the OGL and GSL in the same book (as opposed to using the OGL for a 3.5 version of a book, and the GSL for a 4E version of the same book). While it's technically possible to do so, the GSL FAQ addresses while this would be a difficult needle to thread:

GSL FAQ said:
Q: Can I use the GSL and OGL in the same title?

A: There is no provision in the GSL preventing the of use the OGL but publishers must take care to not assume content in the OGL SRD is the same as like-named content in the GSL SRD. For example, using the definition of “Cleric” from the OGL SRD in a product licensed under the GSL would violate the GSL. GSL definitions and provisions supersede like terms and provisions of the OGL (for example, GSL restrictions on explaining the process of assigning ability scores with respect to Character Creation)

If so, that may mean Godsend would not necessarily be my final 3.5E product and thus I wouldn't have to finish it before releasing some 4E material.

Woo-hoo! :D

It's good to hear that you're open to releasing further 3.5 products in the future! That said, it sounds like the short-term effect of this would be that you'd shift your focus to 4E materials, and given the pace at which you work (I told you I like to complain) that seems to mean that it'd likely be a very long time before we'd see any future 3.5 IH material.

Still, it's far and away better news than you abandoning 3.5 altogether. :)

Belzamus said:
Also, U_K, this is a little off topic, but are your current books not availible for purchase at the moment? I have someone over at the WotC epic 3.5 board who's interested but all the links from your site say they don't carry them anymore.

Oddly, Eternity Publishing isn't available on the drop-down list of publishers over on RPGNow. However, it is possible to find Ascension and the Epic Bestiary Vol. 1 by manually searching for them on the RPGNow website. Here's the link for Eternity Publishing's product page, though it should also show the products with their sales blurbs at the bottom. You should still be able to purchase those products normally...I think.
 
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Howdy Belzamus dude! :)

Belzamus said:
Oh, please, Lord, say it's so!

Probably.

Also, U_K, this is a little off topic, but are your current books not availible for purchase at the moment? I have someone over at the WotC epic 3.5 board who's interested but all the links from your site say they don't carry them anymore.

Books or pdfs?

The two pdfs are available at RPGNow. While the Epic Bestiary print version should be available from Mongoose (at least).

I'm still getting cheques from RPGNow every month so they must still be selling something of mine. :D
 

Hey Alzrius mate! :)

Alzrius said:
Yeah, but I like to complain about that, something I can't do if I'm late in getting things done myself. ;)

Thats true, your license to complain just got revoked. :p

Indeed correct.

Happy days! :)

The revised GSL does away with all limitations on using the OGL completely; in fact, it doesn't even mention "OGL" at any point within the license. Ergo, you could publish a 3.5 version of a book under the OGL, and a 4E version of the exact same book, title and product line and all, under the GSL.

The one caveat to beware of, however, is if you want to use the OGL and GSL in the same book (as opposed to using the OGL for a 3.5 version of a book, and the GSL for a 4E version of the same book). While it's technically possible to do so, the GSL FAQ addresses while this would be a difficult needle to thread:

I think they'll be seperate books, though they might utilise the same/similar art resources.


I'll also still release v6 for free.

It's good to hear that you're open to releasing further 3.5 products in the future! That said, it sounds like the short-term effect of this would be that you'd shift your focus to 4E materials, and given the pace at which you work (I told you I like to complain) that seems to mean that it'd likely be a very long time before we'd see any future 3.5 IH material.

Whats more likely is that I'll get someone else (or a group) to convert the 4E books to 3.5E (for a percentage of the text profits*)

*Seperate from the art profits depending upon who does the art.

This might also mean we'll see a print release for Ascension - although I may make a few changes to that book since its been so long on sale as a pdf I doubt there would be many interested in a print version now.

The 4E 'to do' list is:

Gods & Monsters - Astral Plane: Epic Tier

All prep done, about one quarter finished (text). Aiming for about 40 pages.

Immortals Index - Bronze Age: Canaanite Mythology

All prep done, about one eighth finished (text). Aiming for about 40 pages.

Immortals Handbook - Ability Score, Arcane, Divine & Martial Portfolios

Still at prep stage, although I could probably type up the basics now. However, this book is mainly about the portfolios and I still need some time to determine whether I will have them apply to all roles or single roles.

L1: Against the Reptile God - Part One

There are three main problems with the Adventure:

1) It requires Immortals Handbook to come out first - which I'm still working on.
2) I'll probably need to write a prologue adventure for Level 30 characters to get them to Level 31 (the adventure itself is 31-33), luckily I had such an adventure in mind anyway.
3) Virtually EVERY new encounter in the adventure will require a new stat block. By my calculations even an adventure for a single level will require 16-20 new stat blocks/monsters. Which means every level of adventure requires a mini monster manual...which means more art...yadda yadda etc.

Looking at the amount of monster resources I'll need I think you are talking about a 40 page pdf. per level of the Adventure. The adventure is still at the prep stage, but I think I have half the encounters and monsters determined.

Still, it's far and away better news than you abandoning 3.5 altogether. :)

It was never my intention to abandon it, even though I have grown to loathe it to an extent.

Oddly, Eternity Publishing isn't available on the drop-down list of publishers over on RPGNow. However, it is possible to find Ascension and the Epic Bestiary Vol. 1 by manually searching for them on the RPGNow website. Here's the link for Eternity Publishing's product page, though it should also show the products with their sales blurbs at the bottom. You should still be able to purchase those products normally...I think.

That is weird - I'll maybe drop them an email tonight.
 

I think they'll be seperate books, though they might utilise the same/similar art resources.

Since it's your art, there shouldn't be any problem with using the same picture in different versions of the same book.

I'll also still release v6 for free.

Excellent. That has some great practical applications (just look at the abridged version that Bad Axe Games is using in Trailblazer).

Whats more likely is that I'll get someone else (or a group) to convert the 4E books to 3.5E (for a percentage of the text profits*)

*Seperate from the art profits depending upon who does the art.

So does that mean that you're essentially dropping Godsend, as it is now? I hope not, but this and the 4E list you mentioned make it seem that way.

Either way, I'll throw my hat in the ring for attempting to convert your 4E works to 3.5.

This might also mean we'll see a print release for Ascension - although I may make a few changes to that book since its been so long on sale as a pdf I doubt there would be many interested in a print version now.

Not necessarily. For one thing, some people prefer print versions of books, even if they already have a PDF of it. Also, Eternity Publishing is fairly small-press, so there's always people who haven't heard of the books before now (like Belzamus mentioned) and would want print releases.

The 4E 'to do' list is:

Gods & Monsters - Astral Plane: Epic Tier

All prep done, about one quarter finished (text). Aiming for about 40 pages.

Immortals Index - Bronze Age: Canaanite Mythology

All prep done, about one eighth finished (text). Aiming for about 40 pages.

Immortals Handbook - Ability Score, Arcane, Divine & Martial Portfolios

Still at prep stage, although I could probably type up the basics now. However, this book is mainly about the portfolios and I still need some time to determine whether I will have them apply to all roles or single roles.

L1: Against the Reptile God - Part One

There are three main problems with the Adventure:

1) It requires Immortals Handbook to come out first - which I'm still working on.
2) I'll probably need to write a prologue adventure for Level 30 characters to get them to Level 31 (the adventure itself is 31-33), luckily I had such an adventure in mind anyway.
3) Virtually EVERY new encounter in the adventure will require a new stat block. By my calculations even an adventure for a single level will require 16-20 new stat blocks/monsters. Which means every level of adventure requires a mini monster manual...which means more art...yadda yadda etc.

Looking at the amount of monster resources I'll need I think you are talking about a 40 page pdf. per level of the Adventure. The adventure is still at the prep stage, but I think I have half the encounters and monsters determined.

I have some ideas about these, but I'm not sure how viable they are.

I'd recommend making that "transition" adventure, to get the PCs from level 30 to level 31, first. It should be fairly short, and contain maybe just one or two new monsters (the others being advanced versions of existing monsters) and only enough new rules to get the PCs to 31st level. This makes the adventure into a teaser for the IH series as a whole. After that, people will want the full set of new rules, etc.

Beyond that...it sounds like you're in something of a bind if you'll need to basically make a new monster book for each adventure.

It was never my intention to abandon it, even though I have grown to loathe it to an extent.

I hadn't noticed! :p
 

Hiya mate! :)

Alzrius said:
Since it's your art, there shouldn't be any problem with using the same picture in different versions of the same book.

That assumes it will all be my art - which it probably won't.

Excellent. That has some great practical applications (just look at the abridged version that Bad Axe Games is using in Trailblazer).

Not totally familiar with that. But best of luck to Bad Axe Games.

So does that mean that you're essentially dropping Godsend, as it is now? I hope not, but this and the 4E list you mentioned make it seem that way.

Not dropping Godsend at all, no, but maybe redefining a few of its parameters. For instance, dante has been clamouring for the inclusion of the Nosferatu in that book. But with the 4E Nosferatu in the very first Gods & Monsters pdf it might be better to use them in the 3.5 conversion of that book - rather than Godsend itself.

Either way, I'll throw my hat in the ring for attempting to convert your 4E works to 3.5.

I'll be taking names. Might need a few people to cover all the books...although who am I kidding...at my pace! :o

Not necessarily. For one thing, some people prefer print versions of books, even if they already have a PDF of it. Also, Eternity Publishing is fairly small-press, so there's always people who haven't heard of the books before now (like Belzamus mentioned) and would want print releases.

I suppose. However, definately the Bestiary coming out so long after the pdf really dented its sales and I can see the same happening with Ascension.

I have some ideas about these, but I'm not sure how viable they are.

I'd recommend making that "transition" adventure, to get the PCs from level 30 to level 31, first. It should be fairly short, and contain maybe just one or two new monsters (the others being advanced versions of existing monsters) and only enough new rules to get the PCs to 31st level. This makes the adventure into a teaser for the IH series as a whole. After that, people will want the full set of new rules, etc.

I was initially going to make the transition adventure something like Kobold Hall in the 4E DMG. By that I mean in terms of the number of encounters (five). However if I was going to sell this 'prologue' on its own merits I think I'd need 8 encounters. I think that will make it substantial enough to warrant a painted cover and a handful of new monster stat blocks and illustrations.

My current idea for this adventure is entitled L0* - "No Chance In Hell" and involves the Chinese Deity of Trickery/Thievery & Fire, No Cha. I had one freaky idea whereby you would actually fight No Cha in every encounter (changing his guises) amidst a gauntlet of traps although that might be tricky to pull off successfully.

*Legendary Zero

No Cha would also appear in the (eventual) Immortals Index - Chinese Mythology book. Each Immortals Index volume features 12 main entries, six protagonists and six antagonists, as well as noting some possible PCs/Heroes. Each of the 12 main entries is usually comprised of a small number of characters usually the primary deity, some linked secondary deity, an avatar or exarch and probably an aspect or creature. I'm thinking each Immortals Index will also contain a generic temple layout (I'll steal that idea from D&Dg) as well as a handful of generic worshippers and cultists (probably epic tier).

Beyond that...it sounds like you're in something of a bind if you'll need to basically make a new monster book for each adventure.

The beauty of 4E is that creating monsters is easy - in fact I often have to hold back on the monster creation. The major problem is that more monsters means more required artwork - personally I think a monster (especially a new monster) needs art to bring it to life. Even if it means one of my 'journeyman' efforts.

I hadn't noticed! :p

Understandable...I have been quite shy about mentioning it. :D
 

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