5E: Converting AD&D Monsters to Fifth Edition

Cleon

Hero
yes to the immunities - added

I made dex 16 to keep the 3 odd/3 even split - I was tossing up to make it 18 - no strong opinion on it really.

Both work for me.

DEX 18 feels a bit high in 1E terms, as it's more for superdextrous paragons. Frankly, I'm baffled why Molydeus has DEX 22 in 5E!

lots of skills is good as I imagined him "skill-y"

Agreed.

maybe seems a little overkilly having both heal and regen 20pts/rd. Happy to leave at 10hp/rd while we juggle other abilities, unless you really wanna change it. Flip-flopping on this

It makes little difference to me. Preferred the 10 before I discovered Hutijin had 20 in 5E, which opened the possibility.

Cold and radiant vulnerability like Titivilus won't work since Adonides is immune to cold damage. Devils normally take full damage from lightning, so how about regeneration 20 with lightning and radiant vulnerability?

altered the hopscotch as suggested.

Updating Adonides.
 

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Casimir Liber

Adventurer
But he can cast lightning bolts in 1e, which seems odd if he's then vulnerable to it....

maybe regen 10 and then tossup re adding radiant vulnerability depending on how close or over CR 21 he is

hutijin is a big buff pit fiend-like devil. Adonides is just a big dude
 

Cleon

Hero
But he can cast lightning bolts in 1e, which seems odd if he's then vulnerable to it....

So? It could suggest he's developed an attack to use against rival devils. If all Adonides attacks did fire damage he wouldn't be able to injure his greatest enemy: competitors!

maybe regen 10 and then tossup re adding radiant vulnerability depending on how close or over CR 21 he is

Don't you mean adding lightning?

hutijin is a big buff pit fiend-like devil. Adonides is just a big dude

Well he may resemble a Pit Fiend while Adonides looks like a giant-sized young man, but does that mean much for a fiend? They're not normal flesh and bone so looking buff might not mean much for how tough they are. An Ice Devil is almost skeletal and has more HP than the far fleshier looking Horned Devil.

Besides, while Hutijin is a bit stronger (+8 instead of +7) he has 10 fewer hit points than Adonides and, more importantly for the regeneration question, Hutijin doesn't even have regeneration in 1E or 2E Unlike an actual AD&D Pit Fiend, which had regen 2 in both 1E and 2E, regen 5 in 3E, but doesn't regenerate in 4E and 5E.

Hutijin went the other way: starts without regeneration in 1E and gains regen 10 in 3E and regen 20 in 5E. I don't believe he has official 4E stats.
 



Cleon

Hero
Let's see…

He needed another Special Trait:

Magic Weapons. Adonides's weapon attacks are magical.​

Which I just added, but I'm OK moving on to Actions unless you think we need something else in that section.
 


Cleon

Hero
Okay...actions.....happy to tone down his staff attacks if that's what's needed to balance.

Well it's already toned down slightly because we reduced the STR bonus by a point.

Let's see, if he makes three Multiwhacks with its Staff for 2d6+7 plus 2d8 cold (23 times 3 is 69) plus a Bonus Action Mockery for 4d6 (14) and a Legendary Action Cast a Spell, say cone of cold for 8d6 (28) that's… 111 DPR.

Which is Challenge 21 according to the Calculator.

Indeed it's the very lowest end of CR 21, we can have a range from DPR 111 to 122 and it comes out to that figure.

So we could increase the damage a tad and keep within budget.

However, I'm thinking we should drop the Cast a Spell Legendary Action since none of the Archdevils or Demon Princes in Mordenkainen have it as far as I can see.

Instead I'd rather, say, increase the Vicious Mockery to 6d6 and be able to use THAT as a Cost 2 Legendary Action. That's the same average damage (6d6 + 6d6 instead of 4d6 + 8d6).

Oh, I'm thinking we should adjust the Innate Spellcasting so it has some at-wills like the 5E Titivilus and Hutijin, who have:

Hutijin
 At will: alter self (can become Medium when changing his appearance), animate dead, detect magic, hold monster, invisibility (self only), lightning bolt, suggestion, wall of fire
 3/day: dispel magic
 1/day each: heal, symbol (hopelessness only)​
Titivilus
 At will: alter self, animate dead, bestow curse, confusion, major image, modify memory, nondetection, sending, suggestion
 3/day: greater invisibility (self only), mislead
 1/day: feeblemind, symbol (discord or sleep only)​

The original 1E versions had:

One at a time, at will, 1 per round, Hutijin can use the following spell-like powers as a 20th-level magic-user: animate dead, detect invisible, detect magic, heal twice per day, hold monster, invisibility, know alignment, polymorph self, produce flame, pyrotechnics, ray of enfeeblement, read languages, read magic, shocking grasp, suggestion, teleportation, wall of fire, fulfill another’s limited wish. Hutijin causes fear by voice tone within a 30 foot radius with a saving throw vs. rods et al, applicable. He can use a symbol of persuasion once per day.​

and

It is said that Titivilus possesses a silver sword of wounding; however, he typically uses his other powers. At will, 1 per round, as applicable, Titivilus can use the following spell-like powers as a 20th-level magic-user: animate dead, bestow curse, charm person or mammal, chaos, emotion, feeblemind once per day, forget, fumble, hypnotism, illusion, illusionary script, improved invisibility, know alignment, message, misdirection, nondetection, polymorph self, protection from good, suggestion, teleport, tongues, ventriloquism, whispering wind. Once per day Titivilus can use a symbol of discord or sleep (19 levels or hit dice or 99 hit points affected. A saving throw indicates only nodding and dozing with a 1 in 20 chance per round of awakening fully). He causes fear by touch only.​

So the 5E version is pretty similar in general outline.

Note that the fear causing effects are Traits or Actions not spell-like abilities. 5E Titivilus has a Frightful Word action he can use separately or as part of a Multiattack with a single sword attack, while 5E Hutijin has Infernal Despair.

Adonides causes fear by pointing at someone once per round, so we could make that a Bonus Action or Multiattack option.
 
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Casimir Liber

Adventurer
ok - agree to buff vicious mockery and make legendary action. ditch (rather flavourless) spellcasting, and make some fear-related bonus (finger pointy) action. I gotta sleep as need to be up in 6 hours...sigh
 

Cleon

Hero
ok - agree to buff vicious mockery and make legendary action. ditch (rather flavourless) spellcasting, and make some fear-related bonus (finger pointy) action. I gotta sleep as need to be up in 6 hours...sigh

G'night!

I'd keep the Innate Spellcasting, just give it a bit more variety and not have it as a Legendary Action option.
 

Cleon

Hero
Let's see, if he makes three Multiwhacks with its Staff for 2d6+7 plus 2d8 cold (23 times 3 is 69) plus a Bonus Action Mockery for 4d6 (14) and a Legendary Action Cast a Spell, say cone of cold for 8d6 (28) that's… 111 DPR.

Dammit, I forgot to allow for cone of cold being an AoE which budgets it at 56 not 28.

Just as well we've dropped the Cast a Spell Legendary Action as that makes the DPR 139 for Challenge 22.
 


Casimir Liber

Adventurer
ok, added suggestion and lightning bolt as at will spells. (I think suggestion suits him)

and

Cause Fear. As a bonus action, Adonides can point his finger at a creature (excluding constructs and undead) he can see within 60 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 22 Wisdom save or become frightened of Adonides for one minute. The frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
 

Cleon

Hero
Cause Fear. As a bonus action, Adonides can point his finger at a creature (excluding constructs and undead) he can see within 60 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 22 Wisdom save or become frightened of Adonides for one minute. The frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

I was thinking we could go the Mummy route and make it an Action or Multiattack, i.e.:

Actions
Multiattack. Adonides can use his Finger of Terror and makes three attacks with his twisted staff.​
Finger of Terror. Adonides points his index finger at a creature he can see within 60 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 22 Wisdom save or become frightened for one minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.​

If we made "cause fear" a bonus action then Adonides would not be able to double tap Vicious Mockery that round, which will seriously drop his DPR.
 

Cleon

Hero
ok, added suggestion and lightning bolt as at will spells. (I think suggestion suits him)

Let's see, the original has:

once per round: pyrotechnics, produce flame, ice storm, wall of ice, cone of cold (1d4 + 16 damage), lightning bolt (4d6), detect lie, know alignment, dispel magic, teleport, and (fulfill another’s limited) wish. Once per day Adonides can heal himself (or another, by touch), and once per day he can use a symbol of stunning.​

That doesn't include suggestion so I don't know were you're getting that. It's mostly fire and ice attack spells plus zombie making, dispel magic and a few utilities.
 

Cleon

Hero
Once per day Adonides can heal himself (or another, by touch)

I wouldn't mind keeping the touch range of the Innate Spellcasting heal. I'd also consider making is a supernatural Action or special trait that's 1/day, or more likely Recharge After Long Rest.

How about we make it a Legendary Action option to cast or otherwise use his heal ability?

Imagine the look on the players' faces when they do 70 damage to Adonides or one of his devils and he immediately heals the wounds!
 

Cleon

Hero
Hutijin
 At will: alter self (can become Medium when changing his appearance), animate dead, detect magic, hold monster, invisibility (self only), lightning bolt, suggestion, wall of fire
 3/day: dispel magic
 1/day each: heal, symbol (hopelessness only)

Titivilus
 At will: alter self, animate dead, bestow curse, confusion, major image, modify memory, nondetection, sending, suggestion
 3/day: greater invisibility (self only), mislead
 1/day: feeblemind, symbol (discord or sleep only)

Okay, considering the above and the SLAs the 1E versions had, how's this for a start:

Adonides
Adonides's innate spellcasting ability is Charisma {spell save DC 22). He can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components​
 At will: animate dead, cone of cold, detect magic, ice storm, lightning bolt (5th level spell slot for 10d6 lightning damage)[?], pyrotechnics (4d8 damage), wall of ice
 3/day: dispel magic [maybe move 5th-slot lightning bolt or 8th-slot ice storm here?]​
 1/day each: heal (self or by touch only), ice storm (8th level spell slot for 6d8 bludgeoning damage plus 4d6 cold damage)[?], symbol (stunning only)​

I considered tweaking up the slot of the at-will ice storm probably by a spell slot or two to 3d8 or 4d8 bludgeoning plus 4d6 cold and not having a 1/day superstorm, but preferred Adonides having a augmented "storm of rage" option.

Indeed, I'm leaning towards making the 8th-slot ice storm a 3/day option rather than 1/day since cold damage might not be effective. Most opponents who expect to face him will take precautions against frostbite, so it may mainly be the bludgeoning that contributes to his DPR.

EDIT: After running the numbers it looks like the 8th-slot ice storm is only withing CR 21 budget if it's 1/day, so forget the "make it 3/day" idea. Am now leaning towards moving the 5th-slot lightning bolt to 3/day and not giving Adonides at-will electricity. :ENDEDIT

The original had detect lie and know alignment so I'm wondering if we could interpret that as a Special Trait. Like, Adonides can see if someone's lying, good or evil if they're within 60 feet, maybe with a Charisma saving throw to temporarily thwart the ability?
 
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Cleon

Hero
The original Adonides had a +1 magic weapon, but 5E Archdevils and Demon Princes don't seem to bother with such trifles.

Still, I'd consider making the Twisted Staff a +1 weapon for +15 to hit and 2d6+8 force damage plus 2d8 cold damage.

That's still within budget for Challenge 21.

EDIT: The original description is it's a "twisted, spiked staff" which makes me wonder if it can do piercing damage?

If you are game for the +1 magic weapon udea, it'll need a note to that effect.

Also in AD&D and 3E adventurers could use weapons they've obtained from fiends by force, theft or foul pacts, but I'm thinking this isn't an option in 5E. Just as well: having PCs get their mitts on powerful magic weapons usually plays havoc with a campaign. :ENDEDIT
 
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Cleon

Hero
EDIT: After running the numbers it looks like the 8th-slot ice storm is only withing CR 21 budget if it's 1/day, so forget the "make it 3/day" idea. Am now leaning towards moving the 5th-slot lightning bolt to 3/day and not giving Adonides at-will electricity. :ENDEDIT

So the above'd be:

Innate Spellcasting. Adonides's innate spellcasting ability is Charisma {spell save DC 22). He can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components​
 At will: animate dead, cone of cold, detect magic, ice storm, pyrotechnics (4d8 damage), wall of ice
 3/day each: dispel magic, lightning bolt (5th level spell slot for 10d6 lightning damage)​
 1/day each: heal (self or by touch only), ice storm (8th level spell slot for 6d8 bludgeoning damage plus 4d6 cold damage), symbol (stunning only)​

That looks pretty decent to me.
 
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Casimir Liber

Adventurer
ok adopted spells as above. Warming to idea of staff being +1 weapon. Can convert cold to piercing damage. I'd be game to drop a note that adventurers could use the staff, much like wand of orcus is an artifact and some others
 

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