5E: Converting AD&D Monsters to Fifth Edition

Cleon

Hero
ok..now back to Adonides.....ummm...where were we....

Er, here for you, here for me.

The latter is just a red blank placeholder at the moment, I'll update it with Challenge 21 and Infernal Hopscotch.

I was thinking we could working through blanks in stat order to see if there's any adjustments or additions we fancy.
 

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Cleon

Hero
Okay, Adonides has a point worse AC than a 1E Pit Fiend but a lot more hit points (121 vs an average of 58.5, a hair over twice as much).

That suggests maybe AC 18 (natural armor) instead of a Pit Fiend's 19 and more than the 250 hp of the current draft.

The very high regeneration would make that impossible without increasing the Challenge Rating though. The original Adonides regenerated at 2 hits a round, which is slower than an AD&D Troll's 3.

The current draft has twice as fast regeneration as a 5E Troll and requires radiant damage to defeat. Also the Dragon magazine Adonides has "Fast Healing" type regeneration that did not require a special damage type to overcome and kill him: unlike needing fire or acid to finish off a troll, attackers just had to knock his hit points down into the "dead" category and Adonides would either stay their permanently or be temporarily disembodied until he could reincorporate himself back in the Hells.

EDIT: For comparison, a 5E Balor has 250 hp and a 5E Pit Fiend 300 hp, if Adonides had about twice those hit points one would expect him to haul 500 to 600 hp about, even more than the 401-445 hp typical of CR 21. However that'd make him CR 26 or so if I'm reading the Calculator right. :ENDEDIT
 
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Cleon

Hero
Hmm…

I've been running various numbers through the CR Calculator and he's coming out higher than CR 21.

I forgot to allow for the "Cast a Spell" Legendary Action. If he uses cone of cold that's another 28 damage added to the 101 DPR of three twisted staff thwacks and a vicious mockery.

It does make a surprising amount of difference lowering the Armour Class to 18, since AC 18 is typical for CR 13 to 18 and AC 19 is typical for CR 17+.

EDIT: It's no big deal, we can fiddle around with the DPR later easily enough. Just making the Multiattack two staff attacks for different damage could fairly easily adjust the CR a bit.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
ok dropping the AC makes sense. I like the idea of some regeneration embolding him for battle though - so drop to 10hp/turn and AC 18

250hp seems fair as I see him as having less hp than a big meaty pit fiend

(other thing worth noting is that his cone of cold did 1d4 + 16 damage and lightning bolt 4d6 - both nerfed) - so pondered updating them to cantrips with same damage types
 
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Cleon

Hero
ok dropping the AC makes sense. I like the idea of some regeneration embolding him for battle though - so drop to 10hp/turn and AC 18

250hp seems fair as I see him as having less hp than a big meaty pit fiend

Okay, we'll leave him at 250 hp. He is your baby.

With Regeneration 10 that means a DPR of 120 would give CR if my CR Calculator-Fu is working OK. That's roughly what he does at the moment.

Updating Adonides.

What about Speed? Adonides has Move 16" on the ground, a third faster than the 12" of an unencumbered human. That suggests 40 ft. not 30 ft.

He flies at 28" which is a bit faster than an AD&D Pit Fiend's 24". I'm fine leaving that as is for Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft.
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
agreed on speed....browsing thru cantrips now....

ray of frost cantrip pretty straightforward (and can do 4d8 damage) - but not a AoE obviously
 

Cleon

Hero
Abilities next I guess.

The Original Adonides had a +7 damage adjustment from Strength 19, with is a step better than an AD&D Pit Fiend which is only Strength 18/00 and +6 damage.

The 5E Pit Fiend is noticeably stronger though, as is the 3E version, so I'd be game giving Adonides a Strength score that delivers a +7 modifier, either 24 or 25.

But if you prefer a +8 Strength Score it's fine by me.

It's worth noting that STR +8 and Proficiency +7 gives him a +15 to hit, not the +14 in your current draft.

Dexterity is impossible to judge from the original. Might as well keep it DEX 14 (+2) like in the draft unless we can think of a reason not to.

Constitution needs the +7 bonus to produce 250 hp with 20 HD so that can stay CON 24.
 


Cleon

Hero
Now for mental stats.

I'm happy with the INT 23, WIS 18, CHA 25 of the current draft.

The original Adonides only had Intelligence 16, but high-ranking fiends had a massive boost in brainpower in later editions.

For example, a bog standard Pit Fiend was also INT 16 in 1E AD&D, but in 3E they became Int 26. Heck, the Arch-Devil Geryon was also 16 in 1E and 26 in 3E.

Even Adonides's servant Ice Devils are INT 18 in 5E, while in 1E they are High (13-14).
 


Cleon

Hero
happy to drop his strength to 24

Why not make it 25. Same bonus, it's odd like the original's Str 19, and it gives it three odd scores and three evens:

STR 25 DEX 14 CON 24 INT 23 WIS 18 CHA 25

Hmm… I'd entertain the idea of giving Adonides a higher Wisdom bonus than a Pit Fiend, maybe 20 (+5) or 22 (+6) but am fine leaving it at 18. Any preferences?
 


Cleon

Hero
Now for the next block.

Hmm, all looks OK except I'd lean towards making it Resistance to cold rather than Immunity. That's what a 1E Devil has unless stated otherwise.

It just feels wrong having a Duke of Hell with no Skills. You'd think he'd have at least Investigation and Insight to help him sniff out spies and traitors. If he's "high-handed" Adonides might lack Persuasion to bend people to his whim, but I can see him having Deception and Intimidation.

Skills Deception (CHA), Insight (WIS), Intimidation (CHA), Investigation (INT)
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Cania is so cold though - I thought of this but seems crazy - he'd be taking damage all the time on his home plane...

agree on definitely adding Investigation/Deception/Intimidation, less of a case for Insight but leaning more to yes than no. Mainly because insight a bit more nebulous for combat gameplay - so I get inv +13/intim +14/deception +14/insight +13

UPDATE: i have an idea, maybe he has just cold resistance but his thorny staff gives him cold immunity, so he can be disarmed....
 
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Cleon

Hero
Cania is so cold though - I thought of this but seems crazy - he'd be taking damage all the time on his home plane...

Good point, and Ice Devils have immunity to both fire & ice in 5E (unlike AD&D, were they are immune to cold and take half from fire, and 3E, were they only get cold resistance 10 with their fire immunity).

I'll add the Ice & Cold immunity.

How many skills do the official 5E high ranking fiends have anyway? Let's see, Demogorgon has Insight and Perception, Yeenoghu Intimidation and Perception (both Demon Princes). For devils, Hutijin also has Intimidation and Perception.

However, Titivilus is a better comparison as he's a Duke of Hell and close advisor to an arch-duke. He has… drum roll Deception, Insight, Intimidation and Persuasion, so four skills with three matches to those I suggested!

Interestingly he's only Challenge 16, but the 1E version was "not large nor particularly strong" with only a +3 damage bonus and roughly 2/3rd the hit points of the 1E Adonides.

Updating Adonides.
 

Cleon

Hero
Okay, I'm wondering about increasing the Dexterity since 14 feels a bit mediocre for a diabolical Duke. While the bonus is a match for the 5E Mordenkainen's Hutijin, who has DEX 15 (+2), Titivilus has CON 22 (+6).

Then again, we don't have many comparisons in 5E. I guess there's the Pit Fiend (DEX 14; CR 20) and Molydeus (DEX 22; CR 21).

Still, I'd be fine giving him a higher Dexterity like DEX 16 (+3), but I lean towards having it lower than Titivilus.

In addition, Adonides's Languages should be "all, telepathy 120 ft." rather than just Infernal & telepathy going by the Mordenkainen Presents precedents.

Speaking of which, that source suggests he needs a few more Condition Immunities than just poisoned. For comparison:

Demogorgon charmed, exhaustion, frightened, poisoned​
Hutijin charmed, exhaustion, frightened, poisoned​
Molydeus blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, poisoned, stunned​
Titivilus charmed, exhaustion, frightened, poisoned​
Yeenoghu charmed, exhaustion, frightened, poisoned​

Going by the above, the standard suite for fiendish nobs appears to be charmed, exhaustion, frightened and poisoned. The 1E Adonides has no additional immunities except for the damage type immunities standard to original Monster Manual devils, but a 5E source outranks 1E ones for our conversion.

Shall we add charmed, exhaustion and frightened to Adonides?
 

Cleon

Hero
Going back to the regeneration question, the 5E Hutijin has regeneration 20 with vulnerability to radiant damage, a clear precedent for giving that to Adonides.

Hutijin didn't even have regeneration in 1E! That was introduced in 3E where he had 10 points, or twice that of a standard 3E Troll.

The other Duke of Comparison, Titivilus had regeneration 1 in 1E and is regeneration 10 in 5E like a standard 3E Troll, but is vulnerable to cold and radiant damage rather than acid and fire.

Would you like to go back to Regeneration 20? It doesn't increase the CR as the Calculator only counts 3 rounds so it's the equivalent of another 30 hp. The 70 hp Adonides can recover with its heal spell are more significant, indeed it's likely the best option among his spells.
 


Cleon

Hero
Dang it, forgot the Teleport Action…

Updating Adonides.

Hmm, the wording of that Teleport clashes with Infernal Hopscotch.

I suggest dropping the ability to arrive somewhere out of Adonides's line-of-sight, thus:

Infernal Hopscotch. Adonides magically teleports himself or an ice devil, along with any equipment they are wearing or carrying, up to 120 feet to an unoccupied space he can see. The ice devil must be within 120 feet and in telepathic communication with Adonides. Only the destination point must be visible: Adonides can teleport an ice devil from somewhere he cannot see.​

That's a bit simpler!
 

Casimir Liber

Adventurer
Shall we add charmed, exhaustion and frightened to Adonides?

yes to the immunities - added

I made dex 16 to keep the 3 odd/3 even split - I was tossing up to make it 18 - no strong opinion on it really.

lots of skills is good as I imagined him "skill-y"

maybe seems a little overkilly having both heal and regen 20pts/rd. Happy to leave at 10hp/rd while we juggle other abilities, unless you really wanna change it. Flip-flopping on this

altered the hopscotch as suggested.
 

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