D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

[MostlyDm]

And y'know, as an actual member of the minority group we're supposedly talking about (beside this odd debating about debating thing), my experiences and insights might be a little bit extra relevant and insightful.
Although I suppose actually listening isn't on your list anyway. Just responding.

Hey, so, since I’m also a member of that minority group, you think my thoughts on this topic are extra insightful too, right? ‘Cause that’s how it works, right? It’s not about what makes more sense or who has the more persuasive argument, we should just listen and believe if the person is in the relevant group?

Except… only if they’re in the relevant group and also agree with you, right? I think that’s what you actually meant.

 

[Jester David]

So, it reads to me like you are saying here that heterosexuality is… unacceptable?

What am I misunderstanding?

It's a finicky, nitpicky language & word choice thing.

Saying something is "the norm" means than it's the standard, but also that the alternative is nonstandard. Deviant. An anomaly. Especially when "norm" ties closely with "normal".
People who play RPGS are a minority of the population. Which means not playing games is the standard. Not playing RPGs is the norm, and thus playing RPGs is abnormal. While, technically, abnormal behavior is just less common behavior, there is a strong negative connotation to the term "abnormal". It's a loaded term, heavy with emotion.

Heterosexuality is of course acceptable. Saying "heterosexuality is the norm" is less acceptable. Not because the worlds are wrong, but because they imply judgement.

I know “heteronormativity” is an evil buzz word… but what exactly about what I said was discriminating? What exactly are you reacting so negatively to? I don’t get it…

Again, heteronormativity isn't bad. Assuming heteronormativity as the baseline from which things deviate is bad. In the same way that assuming a textbook nuclear family of a man and a woman and 2.5 kids is bad. (Especially since less than half of children today do NOT live in a "traditional" family, meaning the nuclear ideas is not the norm.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Saying something is "the norm" means than it's the standard, but also that the alternative is nonstandard. Deviant. An anomaly. Especially when "norm" ties closely with "normal".
People who play RPGS are a minority of the population. Which means not playing games is the standard. Not playing RPGs is the norm, and thus playing RPGs is abnormal. While, technically, abnormal behavior is just less common behavior, there is a strong negative connotation to the term "abnormal". It's a loaded term, heavy with emotion.

"It would be normal for an American to prefer watching the Super Bowl to painting miniature orcs." True? Yes. Offensive? Not to me. Is that statement offensive to you? I'd be surprised if it were.

 

[Jester David]

Hey, so, since I’m also a member of that minority group, you think my thoughts on this topic are extra insightful too, right? ‘Cause that’s how it works, right? It’s not about what makes more sense or who has the more persuasive argument, we should just listen and believe if the person is in the relevant group?

Except… only if they’re in the relevant group and also agree with you, right? I think that’s what you actually meant.

Easy there. No need to get personal. We're all here to talk about a silly game where we pretend to be elves and fight orcs, and are all gamers first and foremost. We're all alike in that regard.

This is a message board and we're all nameless, faceless, individuals. And you haven't posted here often enough to really be a known commodity. Right now you're just an opinion. I'm just an opinion. Albeit an opinion with a stylish damn avatar below my name.

Yes, it's more than a little stereotypical to make assumptions of a person based on their opinion. But there hasn't been much else to go on. It's not like we announced our sex, gender, martial status, and the like at the beginning of the discussion. But, if someone were arguing against, oh, D&D text encouraging people to play dark skinned humans and representation of different ethnicity in the game, odds are they wouldn't be person of colour. It's totally making a wild assumption based on the flimsiest of evidence, but with nothing else to judge it's a safe bet.

Everyone slips up and makes a silly assumption from time to time. A friendly reminder is usually the best bet. That's how we learn.

 

[Jester David]

"It would be normal for an American to prefer watching the Super Bowl to painting miniature orcs." True? Yes. Offensive? Not to me. Is that statement offensive to you? I'd be surprised if it were.

I don't like being called abnormal.

A minority? Sure. Uncommon. I'll take that. Rare. Ooo, like a wine (or fancy magic item), I likey. Nonstandard. That's toeing the line. Atypical... now we're really getting a little uncomfortable.
But not abnormal. Or different. Or strange. Or bizarre. Those have too many negative connotations. They're not inaccurate terms, but they're not comfortable.

Everyone's going to have different triggers. Some people are fine with "different". Dare to be different and all. But even then that feels like a "that's our word" situation.

 

[billd91]

"It would be normal for an American to prefer watching the Super Bowl to painting miniature orcs." True? Yes. Offensive? Not to me. Is that statement offensive to you? I'd be surprised if it were.

There's usually a difference between talking about hobbies and affectations compared to identities. Most non-heterosexual people I know seem to think their sexual identity is a bit more important than their hobbies and that comments about their sexual identity cut a bit more to the core.

Experiment to try with your friends - Tell a random African-American you meet on the street that, in the US, it's normal to be white rather than black.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

"It would be normal for an American to prefer watching the Super Bowl to painting miniature orcs." True? Yes. Offensive? Not to me. Is that statement offensive to you? I'd be surprised if it were.

I don't like being called abnormal.

A minority? Sure. Uncommon. I'll take that. Rare. Ooo, like a wine (or fancy magic item), I likey. Nonstandard. That's toeing the line. Atypical... now we're really getting a little uncomfortable.
But not abnormal. Or different. Or strange. Or bizarre. Those have too many negative connotations. They're not inaccurate terms, but they're not comfortable.

Everyone's going to have different triggers. Some people are fine with "different". Dare to be different and all. But even then that feels like a "that's our word" situation.

So you do find the Super Bowl statement offensive? Well, color me surprised then. Maybe I'm just thicker-skinned. I take it as a statement about Americans and the Super Bowl, not about me.

I suppose you could demand the speaker's boots in recompense.

“I am offend!” Shallan yelled.
“You have offended Her Highness again!”
“Very offend!”
“You’d better apologize.”
“No apologize!” Shallan declared. “Boots!”

 

[Jester David]

So you do find the Super Bowl statement offensive? Well, color me surprised then. Maybe I'm just thicker-skinned.

I'm Canadian. I don't even know the rules of football. I have no feelings regarding the Superbowl .

And Google "abnormal" and do an image search. Those are images associated with the term. That's what people think of when they use the term "abnormal". That's what you're associating people with when you refer to the opposite of some things (behaviour, sexuality, gender) as " normal".

 

[Tonguez]

Third gender identity is common in south east asian and Polynesian cultures and so I used that IMC to declare that Orc Shaman were cross geneder and acculturate female. Interstingly that sparked a debate about drag queens stereotypes.

Also Skyrim does subtle gay stories including same gender marriage, being a gay NPC doesnt need to be overt

 

[MostlyDm]

Easy there. No need to get personal. We're all here to talk about a silly game where we pretend to be elves and fight orcs, and are all gamers first and foremost. We're all alike in that regard.

This is a message board and we're all nameless, faceless, individuals. And you haven't posted here often enough to really be a known commodity. Right now you're just an opinion. I'm just an opinion. Albeit an opinion with a stylish damn avatar below my name.

Yes, it's more than a little stereotypical to make assumptions of a person based on their opinion. But there hasn't been much else to go on. It's not like we announced our sex, gender, martial status, and the like at the beginning of the discussion. But, if someone were arguing against, oh, D&D text encouraging people to play dark skinned humans and representation of different ethnicity in the game, odds are they wouldn't be person of colour. It's totally making a wild assumption based on the flimsiest of evidence, but with nothing else to judge it's a safe bet.

Everyone slips up and makes a silly assumption from time to time. A friendly reminder is usually the best bet. That's how we learn.

Nah, I'm not offended, sorry if it came off that way. Though I'll admit the first part of my post was perhaps needlessly sarcastic... but given SuperZero's signature line I figured they wouldn't have trouble parsing it.

My point was that it's foolish for SuperZero to try to garner extra consideration based on being part of a relevant group. The rational way to discuss is to consider what was said, not who was saying it.