D&D 3E/3.5 A 3E/4E powergamer DMs Storm King's Thunder

WHY do you feel it's a coin flip? Assuming you liked previous editions more, what about those editions do you feel is different?

I'm going to compare it to three other games I prefer and am familiar with, and I'm going to leave out 3.X as in my opinion play experience varied as much table to table as it does for entire systems.

Combat--Combat in 5E goes by fast, often in 2-3 rounds. Monsters hit pretty hard, which is necessary to threaten PCs in a 2-3 round fight. The giants in the current adventure can more or less two-shot anybody. Combat goes by so fast that 2-3 bad rolls in a row and you find that you didn't accomplish anything or you find yourself a bloody pulp on the floor. With BA, these rolls tend to be somewhat close to 50-50 and 2-3 round losing streaks are common. In 2E, things were different. Monsters didn't hit as hard. Fighters tended to have big numbers that would blow bounded accuracy out of the water. You didn't see the losing streaks you see in 5E. Magic was more powerful and more decisive as a rule, and tended more towards "I win" buttons where 5E magic while powerful is still a coin flip. 4E had its own sort of bounded accuracy, but combat was designed to go 5-6 rounds so it evened out in the long run. 2-3 bad rolls in a row wasn't necessarily decisive. Leader role healing mitigated random accidents, and good tactics could mostly keep you out of trouble. World of Darkness isn't as combat focused a game as D&D, but if you wanted to be good at it you could spend the character points to be good at it and/or spend resources like blood or willpower in combat and stack the math in your favor.

Non-combat--I feel the sting of BA more here than in combat to be honest. Too often things seem to come down to a single skill roll, with a relatively high chance of non-success. That or there isn't much of a penalty for failure and the entire party rolls and somebody almost always rolls high, which kind of trivializes things. The skill/check system is kind of featured in the PHB to an extent that I'm less eager to throw it out entirely, like I/we often did with 2E. Non-combat magic seems less potent and in my experience less often used than was my experience with 2E and 3E. 5E tends to be magic item light so there isn't much help there either. In 2E, the groups I played with generally just played free-form, rarely rolling dice. NWPs were more of a declarative statement about what you were good at. Thief skills got rolled, but even a low level Thief could specialize in a few skills after a couple of levels and could use them with confidence. Magic items were IME more common, and certainly more powerful than in 5E, and often were a main focus of exploration and other non-combat scenarios. DMs were more comfortable handing out as many as necessary to run the sort of game they were looking for. Non-combat magic seemed more decisive, and seemed to be used more often. 4E's non-combat was focused on its skill system, and it was less subject to bounded accuracy than 5E. It was trivial to specialize(to a greater degree than in 5E) in a few skills your stats matched up with, to the point where moderately difficult tasks stopped being coin flips. In addition, the skill challenge system was there to mostly to avoid the one roll success/failure situation. Non-combat in World of Darkness was similar to combat. If you wanted to be good at something, you invested character points and stacked the math in your favor. You could spend blood/willpower to further stack the odds. In addition, World of Darkness had resources/merits, one of my favorite game mechanics of all time, where you could apply resources to solve problems.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Except at the low levels, I have the opposite experience. Very few monsters hit hard enough, player characters can withstand multiple rounds of abuse, and it's generally hard to challenge the party within the encounter guidelines.

So let's start there. First question: are your characters level 5+ because otherwise I'd say you're completely correct and the only solution is to tough it out :)

Edit: okay, so my very first point must be: perhaps it's the giants' fault? They're rather non-typical monsters after all. Try almost everything else, and you will find monsters aren't as heavy hitting at all...?
 

dave2008

Legend
Thank you, but possibly this could be premature.

First off, does casual oblivion even want suggestions? After all, walking away (from 5E) is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Second, so far, it seems more like an emotional response. Nothing wrong with that, but there's little to base suggestions on.

Third, more info on what seems to be the actual problem? Again, I feel it's premature to approach this from pure guesswork "is it BA?" "is the group beginners?" "is it something else?" Perhaps nothing mechanical needs to change - perhaps it's just a perception issue?

Instead I'd rather let casual oblivion process things in his or her own time.. and perhaps CO will start up a new thread when and if ready for input? :)

All very true, I wasn't trying to lure you in - just trying to give him/her options if he/she wanted them. Sorry for the confusion!
 

Except at the low levels, I have the opposite experience. Very few monsters hit hard enough, player characters can withstand multiple rounds of abuse, and it's generally hard to challenge the party within the encounter guidelines.

So let's start there. First question: are your characters level 5+ because otherwise I'd say you're completely correct and the only solution is to tough it out :)

Edit: okay, so my very first point must be: perhaps it's the giants' fault? They're rather non-typical monsters after all. Try almost everything else, and you will find monsters aren't as heavy hitting at all...?

My experience spans levels 1-9, and my statement does apply to the top end of that. It sounds like you and I are speaking of different issues. You seem to be speaking of a lack of real challenge, which isn't what I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is that in 5E both success and failure feel arbitrary and random, and it feels like what happens is due to sheer luck as opposed to any agency by the players or even the DM. The dice feel like they determine success, not any sort of competence on the part of the player of PC, and I find little satisfaction in this. It does become less dangerous and less challenging at higher levels, but that doesn't feel like it has anything to do with any agency on the part of the players.
 


TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
My experience spans levels 1-9, and my statement does apply to the top end of that. It sounds like you and I are speaking of different issues. You seem to be speaking of a lack of real challenge, which isn't what I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is that in 5E both success and failure feel arbitrary and random, and it feels like what happens is due to sheer luck as opposed to any agency by the players or even the DM. The dice feel like they determine success, not any sort of competence on the part of the player of PC, and I find little satisfaction in this. It does become less dangerous and less challenging at higher levels, but that doesn't feel like it has anything to do with any agency on the part of the players.
I'd pretty much agree with this. Players are generally in the 50-70% success range for abilities, and level appropriate monsters are more broadly at the 30-50% success range for abilities that target PCs. 5e is dice dependent, and characters generally don't have a lot of resources to leverage those odds higher, other than to spend resources to get more rolls (via advantage). The goal of most sessions, in general, is to leverage the narrative outside of combat, which can be at odds with scripted adventures.

As someone who personally enjoys 4e and WoD, but also likes 5e, 5e just might not be the right game for your playstyle. Sorry. :(
 

CapnZapp

Legend
What I'm trying to say is that in 5E both success and failure feel arbitrary and random, and it feels like what happens is due to sheer luck as opposed to any agency by the players or even the DM. The dice feel like they determine success, not any sort of competence on the part of the player of PC, and I find little satisfaction in this. It does become less dangerous and less challenging at higher levels, but that doesn't feel like it has anything to do with any agency on the part of the players.
Okay. Thank you.

I am certainly aware of at least one possible issue (that might plague you), having played games equivalent to Chaosium's games, where every attack is met with an active parry or dodge and the player is generally put in a position of having much more direct control over his character's destiny. As opposed to the very streamlined combat of D&D, I mean. (Not saying one is better than the other)

Generally, I feel you do have agency in D&D - it's just more indirect and less atomic (not on an individual blow by blow basis). For instance, you'd cast a spell making the enemy have disadvantage. Does this ensure you going free? No, the enemy can still crit every attack! But D&D operates heavily on the law of averages, which is a necessity since D&D involves lots of attacks and lots of die rolls...

I'm going to ask you a question, but please don't assume I'm baiting you or starting an edition war:

How is this different from 2E/3E?

Because if you go "hate them too" then I would agree, the basic combat model of D&D isn't for you.

It is if you are okay with 2E/3E, but not with 5E, I feel the greatest opportunity to actually "fix" this (as in resolving the discussion in another manner than you walking away).
 

Okay. Thank you.

I am certainly aware of at least one possible issue (that might plague you), having played games equivalent to Chaosium's games, where every attack is met with an active parry or dodge and the player is generally put in a position of having much more direct control over his character's destiny. As opposed to the very streamlined combat of D&D, I mean. (Not saying one is better than the other)

Generally, I feel you do have agency in D&D - it's just more indirect and less atomic (not on an individual blow by blow basis). For instance, you'd cast a spell making the enemy have disadvantage. Does this ensure you going free? No, the enemy can still crit every attack! But D&D operates heavily on the law of averages, which is a necessity since D&D involves lots of attacks and lots of die rolls...

I'm going to ask you a question, but please don't assume I'm baiting you or starting an edition war:

How is this different from 2E/3E?

Because if you go "hate them too" then I would agree, the basic combat model of D&D isn't for you.

It is if you are okay with 2E/3E, but not with 5E, I feel the greatest opportunity to actually "fix" this (as in resolving the discussion in another manner than you walking away).

1. I find there is far less agency in 5E than there is in any other edition of D&D, and to an unsatisfactory degree.
2. The law of averages in 5E I find means little when most things are more or less decided by 1-3 rolls.
3. How is this different from 2E/3E? In both of those editions, there were options to go beyond 5E's bounded accuracy, and both games featured "I win" buttons that were both more numerous and more decisive than the ones in 5E.
4. Neither 2E nor 3E is an ideal solution. I find 2E dated and lacking in options, and 3E is an unbalanced mess.
 


Waterbizkit

Explorer
I'll give you all due credit for trying the system as both a player and now as a DM. It's unfortunate that you dislike the edition so much, I like it quite a bit as do my players, but then again there's absolutely nothing wrong with disliking any edition of the game or any other game system for that matter. This one isn't for you and it's really that simple.

I do question the purpose of the thread though. Your tone and the way you convey your opinions and experiences seems to indicate you're not really interested in having anyone change your mind, so what exactly is there to discuss? You post a thread that essentially boils down to "Hey, I tried it but I hate it" in a forum where, for the most part, you're only going to get a bunch of pushback. If you tried it and don't like it, that's cool, but why not just walk away? Why do we need to know? I'm not asking all of this to be snarky, believe me. I'm genuinely interested. A delightfully terrible analogy would be if I went to a forum where everyone was discussing the color blue and the various shades thereof and posted a thread whose premise boiled down to "I hate the color blue". What would be the point?

Anyway, whatever. You don't like the edition, but at least you gave it what seems to be a fair shake. Have fun with whatever it is you move on to that better fits your needs.
 

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