D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

Status
Not open for further replies.
You can't, though. All you can do is keep an alignment written on your sheet. If the entire game world(gods and demons included) views you as evil, your PC is evil. Evil and good are objective things in D&D. What you end up with is an evil PC that has good written on his sheet.

The alignment the player choses is his alignment. You don't get to dismiss it by calling it "an evil PC that has good written on his sheet".

As an example, if you played a PC necromancer in my game that had LG written on his sheet and you were casting animate dead daily, and then tried to read a Book of Exalted deeds, the damage would be 24d6 radiant. I'm not required to go by what you have written down. The PCs deeds(and that rule) are enough for me to trigger or not an item like the book.

No idea what a book of exalted deeds is or does. But I do know that a players alignment is their alignment and it's their choice for what their alignment is. This isn't 3.5e anymore :)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The alignment the player choses is his alignment. You don't get to dismiss it by calling it "an evil PC that has good written on his sheet".

If you're going to be that hard about the player getting to pick the alignment, then I assume that you bind the player to the alignment rules so that they can't break their alignment either, right? If the necromancer puts LG on his sheet, then he's forbidden to constantly act in an evil manner.

Or else alignment is just a guideline for the player, in which case when it come to how the game interact with PC alignment, the DM gets to decide.

No idea what a book of exalted deeds is or does. But I do know that a players alignment is their alignment and it's their choice for what their alignment is. This isn't 3.5e anymore :)
It's a 5e artifact that does 24d6 radiant damage to anyone who is evil that tries to read it. Since the rules dictate that only evil casters cast spells such as animate dead frequently, the book will react to a PC that does so by doing the damage, regardless of what the player has written down.

You can invalidate that particular rule for your game, but it doesn't become invalid for the games of others just because you say so.
 

If you're going to be that hard about the player getting to pick the alignment, then I assume that you bind the player to the alignment rules so that they can't break their alignment either, right? If the necromancer puts LG on his sheet, then he's forbidden to constantly act in an evil manner.

Or else alignment is just a guideline for the player, in which case when it come to how the game interact with PC alignment, the DM gets to decide.

IMO. Alignment rules are a mess. I've not played with alignments in years. This discussion highlights some of the reasons why.

It's a 5e artifact that does 24d6 radiant damage to anyone who is evil that tries to read it. Since the rules dictate that only evil casters cast spells such as animate dead frequently, the book will react to a PC that does so by doing the damage, regardless of what the player has written down.

You can invalidate that particular rule for your game, but it doesn't become invalid for the games of others just because you say so.

Sounds like you are not using alignment to determine who is evil which is fine but not the only way to handle that situation.
 

It's a 5e artifact that does 24d6 radiant damage to anyone who is evil that tries to read it.

I believe a unicorns lair also reacts differently to good aligned creatures. An oathbreaker Paladin must be evil. There are a few other alignment restrictions and rules in 5E, but they're rare.

In any event it doesn't bother me that much. Session zero I first seek consensus for evil PCs from the group. If they all agree, fine. Evil PCs are allowed (and so be it). If just one disagrees, then no evil PCs.

And I dont engage in alignment arguments like this at my table either. The explanation is: 'It's evil, this is why, and that is what the Gods think.'

Evil in my games is harming, killing or oppressing others. The only time it is morally neutral to take a life intentionally is in legitimate self defence, or the defence of others, when force reasonable and proportionate to the threat.

Good in my games is mercy, compassion, altruism, charity, empathy and self sacrifice. Placing others interests above your own.

Neutrality in my games is lacking the conviction to generally put others interests above your own, but having enough empathy and compassion to avoid harming, killing and oppressing others.

Lawful people respect honour, family and tradition. They generally have or follow a code of ethics, and prefer routine and structure to spontaneity and reckless behaviour. They're often predictable and reliable.

Chaotic people are the inverse of lawful.

Examples of alignments:

Anakin Skywalker: CG - As Darth Vader CE.
The Punisher: LE
Rick Sanchez: CE
Han Solo: CN initially before switching to CG in Ep IV
Deadpool: CN
Magneto: LE
Luke Skywalker: NG
Titus Pullo (HBO's Rome): CE
Lucius Vorenus (HBO's Rome): LN
Captain America: LG

etc.

Thats my take on it anyway.
 

But, if the God is an Undead, and LG, then how can that god declare undead to be evil? Why would he provide a form of the spell to create undead that is evil? Why would mummies made (I believe Create Undead does make mummies, but I could be wrong) in this God's purview, be evil monsters bound by dark magics of evil gods?
1) I don't share your interpretation of Osiris that he was worshipped as being an undead god. He was killed, resurrected, and rules the afterworld but I don't think that his priests or worshippers identify him as undead.
2) Osiris did not declare undead to be evil. Skeletons and zombies and mummies are evil under the D&D ruleset because of their behaviour. They are willing and happy to slaughter innocents and suchlike - which means an evil alignment in D&D.
3) I've gone into why a Lawful Good deity might allow the creation of a Lawful Evil being to serve a specific purpose. If mummies were good-aligned, they would make less-capable instruments of divine punishment.
(I also believe that D&D mummies are based around the folklore of tomb guardians and punishment of desecration rather than the actual Egyptian mythos.)

The point isn't "PCs can copy what was done" but that if that is possible, then why are lesser forms of good undead not possible?
For the same reason that you can't cast Fireball as a Transmutation spell, or make it deal Lightning damage by default. That is simply the way the default D&D setting and mechanics work.

Skeletons have very rarely been able to talk across any media. I'd say you have a better debate with zombies.
We're talking 5e D&D. The Animate dead spell doesn't say that Skeletons can't talk: that is only spelled out in the MM. Just like the Animate dead spell doesn't say how an uncontrolled Skeleton behaves, but that is spelled out in the MM. The parallel is there and a player might use a similar argument that the absence of that detail from the spell text or statblock in the PHB justifies that when they raise a skeleton using animate dead, it can talk.

But that is part of the problem here isn't it? There is only a single sentence that players have access to calling Animate Dead evil. And nothing about the spell itself gives a solid reason for it to be evil. You need to have read the Monster Manual, and accept that the Monster Manual is giving an accurate picture of all instances of skeletons and zombies. Which it isn't. After all, players can't make Ogre Zombies or Beholder Zombies, even though they are covered by the same lore and very similar mechanics. Same with Warhorse Skeletons or Minotaur Skeletons.
"Foul mimicry of life" is reasonably descriptive of evil.
I think that trying to claim that the MM is not accurate in this case because the Animate Dead spell does not allow the creation of Skeleton variants is a mistaken argument at best. - It specifically states that Skeletons can arise by both spell and spontaneously.
Do you have access to the MM?

So, I feel it is fair to question, if the MM is not 100% accurate as to what is going on, and the player has no information from the MM anyways, why must we assume that the character is committing an evil act by binding a hateful spirit to the dead body? The player has no way to know that unless the DM tells them, and I can't think of a very good reason the DM would force them to do so, if they could instead bind a good spirit of a protector to the body.
There is no reason to believe that the MM is not accurate in this case.
Even if the player misses the text in the PHB talking about creating undead the Animate Dead spell itself talks about "foul mimicry of life" and the statblocks in the PHB state that Skeletons and Zombies are Evil.
This is not "no way of knowing" and I do not think trying to make that claim is correct.

The DM is as always at liberty to tweak things, such as allowing a good spirit or the original soul to animate a skeleton, if they so choose.

They are being used synonymously
The Raven Queen is a "dark" goddess, but not called out as an Evil one for example.

But why must they be evil? Osiris is Lawful Good, the canopic jars referenced by the Mummy Lord have always depicted Good deities from the pantheon, the sons of Horus.

I'm not saying you can't make an evil mummy, I'm asking why you can't make a good one?
A PC can't by default because they are using a spell designed to create a relentless avenger of profane transgressions. If a PC wanted to research a spell with a different purpose, they should talk to their DM.

But why are they evil if there is no reason they must be evil? What prevents you from using necromancy to bind a willing, good soul to a body and make a good zombie?
The default D&D mechanics and setting. - It is just the method that spell uses the way the world works to achieve its purpose.

Ravinica has the Golgari Spore Druids, who make Zombies (using the zombie statblock specifically) from spores and fungus control. No evil spirits anywhere involved in that.
No, but the spore zombie will still be evil. - Probably because it no longer has any human impulses or ethics and will happily create more dead bodies for fungus to grow on.

And with the Deathless in Eberron, whether or not Zombies are traditionally evil or not, we know that it is possible to make Good Undead.
I don't think that anyone is claiming that it is not possible to make a good creature that is classified as Undead. IIRC this discussion is based off whether the Animate Dead spell might be viewed as evil, illegal, or immoral bear in mind.
The description of Deathless (Undying) makes it very clear that the origin and existence of Undying is very different to that of normal Undead.
 

Weird how I can be good alignment and animate dead to my hearts content then.... As I said earlier it's an invalid rule because I can create a character that directly contradicts it.
You can create a character that tries to contradict it, and if the DM or the setting specifically allows this you're gold.

But absent such a specific allowance, the default is that frequent use of Animate Dead is evil, which means the game world pretty soon ain't gonna see you as being nearly as Good as you think you are.
 


In any event it doesn't bother me that much. Session zero I first seek consensus for evil PCs from the group. If they all agree, fine. Evil PCs are allowed (and so be it). If just one disagrees, then no evil PCs.
And if one person doesn't want Gnomes, they're out too? Ditto for Lawful Good PCs - if one person doesn't want 'em, they're out?

That's the risk of allowing individual vetoes.

Examples of alignments:

Anakin Skywalker: CG - As Darth Vader CE.
The Punisher: LE
Rick Sanchez: CE
Han Solo: CN initially before switching to CG in Ep IV
Deadpool: CN
Magneto: LE
Luke Skywalker: NG
Titus Pullo (HBO's Rome): CE
Lucius Vorenus (HBO's Rome): LN
Captain America: LG

etc.

Thats my take on it anyway.
Darth Vader is LE. A C-anything would never be able to function in the strict heirarchy of the Empire, nor hide his C-ness from the Emperor for any length of time.
 

I know it's an old cliche, but this mess happened to me. I was all set to go with a necromancer. My guy was raising dead, the campaign was running smoothly, and then a buddy joined up at level 6. He wanted to roll a paladin.

What's the best way to make the two play nice in the same party? Is there a mechanical solution to the problem? Alternatively, how can I circumnavigate his ire?

Relevant comic.

Well either he turns your minions or you turn him into your minion, so what is your problem?


:P
 

And if one person doesn't want Gnomes, they're out too? Ditto for Lawful Good PCs - if one person doesn't want 'em, they're out?

Yes (broadly). I want to play a game we all want to play. If someone doesnt want something in the game, and there is a good reason for that, then they're out.

Its consensus man. The tables social contract.

Darth Vader is LE. A C-anything would never be able to function in the strict heirarchy of the Empire, nor hide his C-ness from the Emperor for any length of time.

Darth Vader followed the Emperor out of fear. Until he betrayed the Emperor and the Empire. In no way was he Lawful. The regime he served was LE. He himself was Chaotic evil.

He never kept his word (I'm altering the deal; pray I dont alter it any further!), had no respect for honour, family or tradition. He acted however his anger, fear, and hatred determined. He followed no laws (indeed he existed outside the law).

Anakin Skywalker (Vader) betrayed and caused the downfall of:

His Wife
The Republic
The Jedi
The Sith
The Empire
The Emperor
Obi Wan Kenobi, his master and best friend
Lando Calrissian

And others.

Was there anyone he didnt betray?

In what possible way did Darth Vader respect or uphold honour (he had none) family (he actively attempted to turn his son to the dark side, cut off his hand, and handed him over to the Emperor to be killed) or tradition (he brought down both the Jedi and the Sith, the Republic and the Empire, betrayed both masters, and literally existed outside the law)?

As a Jedi, Anakin Skywalker was rash, impetuous, hard to control and a loose cannon; powerful but with a strong moral compass.

As a Sith, Anakin Skywalker was just as rash, impetuous and hard to control. He personally led assaults and flew starfighters into battle with capital ships, alone. He served the empire (and the emperor) out of fear. Thats it.

You could argeue he stuck to the Sith tradition... but the Sith tradition (act however your hatred and fear dictate, betray your master and kill him) is a CE code.

Its one of my personal bugbears. People confuse Vader as LE. He was in no way Lawful. He followed no code, other than 'serve the Emperor out of fear'. The Empire itself was LE. Vader was a CE servant of that Empire.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top