A request for information/opinion

[emoplato]

I'll definitely look into the trip function- after all, it's just a simple matter of substituting Improved Sunder for Improved Trip and Power Attack for Combat Expertise, since I'd not be getting the free monk feat for it until level 10 at the least.

Where is the Dungeon crasher at? Never heard of it before.

As for the race, human was required. We had the option of going half-elf, but it didn't suit my purposes.

Ultimately I want a guy that the Paladin can say "Hey, dude, those guys are evil and they're screwing with people around here," and point, and my monk can go into them and immobilize/incapacitate them in a matter of rounds.

The Monk AC bonus plus the VoP bonus would allow me to stand much longer in battle than a normal monk would dream of (+14 at level 6? Gawd.) and the Touch of Golden Ice + Flurry of blows ability means that at least someone is going to be frozen by the end of the encounter. (I'm going to have to look into the extenuating bonuses for using that against evil outsiders and such- where can I find that?)

Of course, if I start out as a Paladin, I wouldn't need one to direct me, but doing so decreases the amount of specialization that I'm open to as a Fighter/Monk combo, thanks to the number of fighter available feats that this build is looking at using.

Okay, look back at my first post. This variant is in the supplement called Dungeonscape, basically it is a variant that trades the second and six level bonus feats for dealing quite brutal damage when you bull rush someone into a solid surface as well some trap and obstacle breaking stuff.
I ask about the monk because you can go unarmed swordsage giving you more powers than a regular monk can ever have.
Did your DM talk about how he will work in this materia system into D&D? It can vastly change what you will choose to be and what you may want to do.

 

[dragonfriend7738]

So, for a potential Paladin/ Monk Ascetic Knight build:

Abilities/feats
Lv1: Human Feat: Sacred Vow; Starter Feat: Vow of Poverty; Paladin 1: Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite 1/day; VoP 1: AC+4, Touch of Golden Ice
AC: (3 DEX +4 VoP) BAB: +1(+3 STR) Saves: +2, +0, +0

Lv2: Pal2: Divine Grace, Lay on Hands; VoP2: Hands of a Healer
AC: (3 DEX +4 VoP) BAB: +2(+3 STR) Saves: +3, +0, +0

Lv3: Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike; Pal3: Aura of Courage, Divine health; VoP3: AC+5, Endure Elements
AC: (3 DEX +5 VoP) BAB: +3(+3 STR) Saves: +3, +1, +1

Lv4: Wis +1; Bonus Feat (sack spellcasting variant): Improved Natural Attack; Pal4: Turn Undead; VoP4: Intuitive Attack, Exalted Strike +1(magic)
AC: (3 DEX +5 VoP) BAB: +4(+4 WIS, +1 Exalted) Saves: +4, +1, +1

Lv5: Retrain from Lv3: Weapon Focus (Unarmed)*; Monk 1: Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows; VoP5: Sustenance
AC: (+3 DEX +5 VoP +4 WIS) BAB: +4(+4 WIS, +1 Exalted, +1 unarmed) Saves: +6, +3, +3

Lv6: Feat: Combat Expertise; Mk2: Combat Reflexes; VoP6: AC+6, Deflection +1, Sanctify Natural Attack
AC: (+3 DEX +6 VoP +4 WIS +1 Defl) BAB: +5(+4 WIS, +1 Exalted, +1 unarmed) Saves: +7, +4, +4

* allows to go Kensai at level 7, otherwise will be Superior Unarmed Strike


Compared to the previous Fighter/monk build:

Pros: Allows for healing ability without breaking the VoP, is capable of determining enemies to maximize combat ability in battle, levels are interchangable due to Ascetic Knight variant, immune to fear and disease early.

Cons: (Comparably) Limited feat selection, fighter could spec for trip by level 6 and still qualify for Kensai prestige class while maintaining unarmed excellence.

What do you guys think? Am I missing something?

 

[Dandu]

How much damage are you doing with that build?

 

[dragonfriend7738]

Exalted Fighter/SwordSage build:

Lv1: Feat: Sacred Vow; Human feat: Vow of Poverty; Fighter 1: Improved Unarmed Strike; VoP1: AC+ 4, Intuitive Attack
AC: +3+4 BAB: +1(+4) Saves: +2, +0, +0 Unarmed damage: d3+3

Lv2: Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Unarmed); VoP2: Touch of Golden Ice
AC: +3+4 BAB: +2(+4)(+1) Saves: +3, +0, +0 Damage: d3+3

Lv3: Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike; VoP3: AC +5, Endure Elements
AC: +3+5 BAB: +3(+4)(+1) Saves: +3, +1, +1 Damage: d4+3

Lv4: +1 Wis; Fighter 4: Combat Expertise; VoP4: Exalted Strike +1 (magic), Nimbus of Light
AC: +3+5 BAB: +4(+4)(+1)(+1) Saves: +4, +1, +1 Damage: d6+1(magic)+3

Lv5: Retrained from Fighter 2: Improved Natural Attack; SwdSg 1:Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus Unarmed), 6 Maneuvers, 1 Stance Monk damage scale (sacking light armor prof.); VoP 5: Sustenance.
AC: +3+5 BAB: +4(+4)(+1)(+1) Saves: +4, +3, +3 Damage: 2d6+1(magic) +3

Lv6: Feat: Improved Trip; SwdSg2: AC Bonus, 7 Man., 2 Stance; VoP 6: AC +6, Deflection +1, Sanctified Natural Strike.
AC: +1+3+4+6 BAB: +5(+4)(+1)(+1) Saves: +4, +4, +4 Damage: 2d6+1(magic)+3

Pros: Spec'd to Trip at level 6, more varied abilites than a monk, capable of prestiging to Kensai if desired.

Cons: No fast movement, lower Fort save, no flurry of blows, have to sack a few feats for Defensive Throw.

All in all, I like this, honestly. All the cons, with the exception of the Fort Save are countered by the abilities that the Maneuvers and Stances give, and I'm definitely willing to work for the Defensive Throw. The variant of sacking light armor proficiency to gain a monk's damage scale is brilliant, and I love that it's right there in the source book. Any suggestions for tweaks or optimizing while still staying in the Vow of Poverty?

 

[emoplato]

Exalted Fighter/SwordSage build:

Lv1: Feat: Sacred Vow; Human feat: Vow of Poverty; Fighter 1: Improved Unarmed Strike; VoP1: AC+ 4, Intuitive Attack
AC: +3+4 BAB: +1(+4) Saves: +2, +0, +0 Unarmed damage: d3+3

Lv2: Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Unarmed); VoP2: Touch of Golden Ice
AC: +3+4 BAB: +2(+4)(+1) Saves: +3, +0, +0 Damage: d3+3

Lv3: Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike; VoP3: AC +5, Endure Elements
AC: +3+5 BAB: +3(+4)(+1) Saves: +3, +1, +1 Damage: d4+3

Lv4: +1 Wis; Fighter 4: Combat Expertise; VoP4: Exalted Strike +1 (magic), Nimbus of Light
AC: +3+5 BAB: +4(+4)(+1)(+1) Saves: +4, +1, +1 Damage: d6+1(magic)+3

Lv5: Retrained from Fighter 2: Improved Natural Attack; SwdSg 1:Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus Unarmed), 6 Maneuvers, 1 Stance Monk damage scale (sacking light armor prof.); VoP 5: Sustenance.
AC: +3+5 BAB: +4(+4)(+1)(+1) Saves: +4, +3, +3 Damage: 2d6+1(magic) +3

Lv6: Feat: Improved Trip; SwdSg2: AC Bonus, 7 Man., 2 Stance; VoP 6: AC +6, Deflection +1, Sanctified Natural Strike.
AC: +1+3+4+6 BAB: +5(+4)(+1)(+1) Saves: +4, +4, +4 Damage: 2d6+1(magic)+3

Pros: Spec'd to Trip at level 6, more varied abilites than a monk, capable of prestiging to Kensai if desired.

Cons: No fast movement, lower Fort save, no flurry of blows, have to sack a few feats for Defensive Throw.

All in all, I like this, honestly. All the cons, with the exception of the Fort Save are countered by the abilities that the Maneuvers and Stances give, and I'm definitely willing to work for the Defensive Throw. The variant of sacking light armor proficiency to gain a monk's damage scale is brilliant, and I love that it's right there in the source book. Any suggestions for tweaks or optimizing while still staying in the Vow of Poverty?

Dancing Mongoose gives you a fully developed flurry of blows that stacks with two weapon fighting so it shouldn't be a problem(not to mention its big brother). Later on you can tag on two weapon fighting and snap kick so you can strike twice even in strike manuevers. In order so you can take the penalty all the time discipline weapon(+1) gives you +3 attack bonus to each discipline it is keyed to. I haven't used it but apparently unless the example was a typo you can have multiple ones on without getting another one. So, you can easily have a +6-9 stackable bonus on all the time, makes power attack more worthwhile. Assassin's stance gives you 2d6 worth of sneak attack therefore allowing to take up craven which for a -2 penalty on will saves vs. fear gives bonus damage on sneak attack equal to character level.

 

[dragonfriend7738]

What do you guys think about going straight fighter until level 8 before crossing to Sword Sage? Doing that would allow me to get the prereqs for Defensive Throw several levels faster- can get it as soon as level 9, and would grant me the multiple attack BAB two levels faster than cross classing at level 5, but holds me to a damage rating of 1d6+4 (all counted as magic damage) until level 8, and my AC would be without the WIS bonus until level 10.

Does this seem like a fair trade off?

 

[emoplato]

What do you guys think about going straight fighter until level 8 before crossing to Sword Sage? Doing that would allow me to get the prereqs for Defensive Throw several levels faster- can get it as soon as level 9, and would grant me the multiple attack BAB two levels faster than cross classing at level 5, but holds me to a damage rating of 1d6+4 (all counted as magic damage) until level 8, and my AC would be without the WIS bonus until level 10.

Does this seem like a fair trade off?

If you doing that than please take the Dungeon crasher variant, the fact is dude you will be competing with uberchargers(just type d&d ubercharger in google), so you basically have two directions to go to be viable: either enable them to kill or be able to take over when in situations they can't. Listen to Dandu, he maybe purposely coy and sarcastic but damage is key.

 

[dragonfriend7738]

If you doing that than please take the Dungeon crasher variant, the fact is dude you will be competing with uberchargers(just type d&d ubercharger in google), so you basically have two directions to go to be viable: either enable them to kill or be able to take over when in situations they can't. Listen to Dandu, he maybe purposely coy and sarcastic but damage is key.

The largest issue that I have with the Dungeon Crasher is that he sacks the 2nd and 6th level fighter feats, and I would need those in order to get Improved Trip, let alone Defensive Throw as early as my current build prospects are getting them.

This character's gimmick is (hopefully) going to be the ability to neutralize enemies without actually dealing massive damage to them; the Superior Unarmed+ Improved Natural feats will give him the ability to help deal damage alongside the fighters and Paladins that make up the rest of the party and are going to be wielding the bastard swords and great axes that are enchanted with elemental damage.

I'm not the kind of player that gets frustrated when my character isn't holding his own in the damage ranking, and much prefer the role-playing aspect of the game over the combat aspect, otherwise I'd be trying to build something along the lines of an ubercharger. Thankfully, the rest of my party is also of a similar mindset, so we all get to enjoy the game without it becoming an exercise of the person with the highest initiative kills the first baddie.

If I ever want to roll up a damage-centric brawler-type, though, I will definitely remember the Dungeon Crasher and bring that out to play.

 

[emoplato]

The largest issue that I have with the Dungeon Crasher is that he sacks the 2nd and 6th level fighter feats, and I would need those in order to get Improved Trip, let alone Defensive Throw as early as my current build prospects are getting them.

This character's gimmick is (hopefully) going to be the ability to neutralize enemies without actually dealing massive damage to them; the Superior Unarmed+ Improved Natural feats will give him the ability to help deal damage alongside the fighters and Paladins that make up the rest of the party and are going to be wielding the bastard swords and great axes that are enchanted with elemental damage.

I'm not the kind of player that gets frustrated when my character isn't holding his own in the damage ranking, and much prefer the role-playing aspect of the game over the combat aspect, otherwise I'd be trying to build something along the lines of an ubercharger. Thankfully, the rest of my party is also of a similar mindset, so we all get to enjoy the game without it becoming an exercise of the person with the highest initiative kills the first baddie.

If I ever want to roll up a damage-centric brawler-type, though, I will definitely remember the Dungeon Crasher and bring that out to play.

Okay, then enable them, look into Setting sun and White Raven manuevers. You will be able trip them safely far before the feat and you throw them away in any direction you choose. White raven gives extra actions, bonus damage on flanking or charging, and restricts actions of your enemies(You will need the marital manuever feat).
I don't suggest you take fighter to 8 in a non-gestalt you will lose out on 9th level manuevers. I suggested the Kensai when you where just at four because you could have a couple of good enhancements and still get those manuevers but this loses them. This means no Time Stand Still, Tornado Throw, Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervating Strike,...etc.

 

[dragonfriend7738]

Okay, then enable them, look into Setting sun and White Raven manuevers. You will be able trip them safely far before the feat and you throw them away in any direction you choose. White raven gives extra actions, bonus damage on flanking or charging, and restricts actions of your enemies(You will need the marital manuever feat).

I've heard the phrase 'love is a battlefield' but I didn't think DnD played into that. (marital vs martial)

I'm not seeing Martial Maneuver in the Tome of Battle, is it somewhere else? I'm assuming that it grants access to the White Raven maneuvers, because the Sword Sage class reads that it doesn't grant access to them on its own. As for Setting Sun, I was reading those abilities, and had already planned on specializing in that discipline.