Pathfinder 1E A Worg as a character.

[dragonis111]

Starting a short campaign where the party is evil, and someone wants to play a worg, and I deem this okay as it is intelligent enough and can speak languages, so the worg meets the most vital functions of being a PC, the only real drawback I see is that it can't hold things or operate complex mechanical/magical devices due to lack of hands.

Basically the player wants to level it as a rogue so I'm letting him use the worg ability scores with the intelligence score buffed from 6 to 8. My only real questions are since the worg has 4 hd, is a +4 level adjustment enough to keep it on the same level as the party, and besides the drawback of not having hands/opposable thumbs, what other drawbacks might surface from playing a magical beast?

Thanks in advance?

 

[gamerprinter]

If you're starting at 1st level, I'd reduce the worg's HD to 1d10 + CON bonus and eschew any level adjustments altogether, as the base worg seems equivalent to a 4th level character. This would also reduce its bite attack to 1d6+1 (instead of +4), as well as CMB/CMD. I'd alter the Saves to good Fortitude and Reflex, and poor Will, instead of the default for Worg. Keep everything else.

I'd recommend leveling as a ranger, and not rogue. The base HD for worg is d10, so I'd stick with that by leveling as a comparable d10 HD class. Plus ranger abilities seem more appropos to a worg of the wilderness, than that of rogue.

Another way to do it is to convert the worg into a racial paragon class, as per Rite Publishing's In the Company of... series. This would be a 1-20th level class where 4th level is equivalent to the Bestiary worg. There is no formula, per se, for building a racial paragon class, however, there are a couple examples of racial paragon classes posted to d20pfsrd.com, including: Bone-Breaker (kappa), Mushakemono (henge), and Hishoken (tengu).

Another reference might be 20 Variant Foes: Worgs and Winter Wolves by Rite Publishing.

 

[dragonis111]

The campaign is starting 5th level since it will be short, we don't want to waste time gaining the early levels, so the worg can start with a level in a class, as for the class, my player really wants to play a rogue so thats what I'm letting him do, in my groups my players play what they want instead of "optimal min/max builds" which I enjoy. But I like the idea of switching the saves around.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Quick suggestion, Give the character a Hand of the Mage for all the fine dexterity things. Lockpicks, trap disarming tools and mechanisms, picking a pocket... you're only limit is 5lbs of weight so all the subtle things a Rogue can do, a handless character should be able to do telekinetically. A 900gp item is comfortably within the range of what a level 5 character could afford.

 

[gamerprinter]

The campaign is starting 5th level since it will be short, we don't want to waste time gaining the early levels, so the worg can start with a level in a class, as for the class, my player really wants to play a rogue so thats what I'm letting him do, in my groups my players play what they want instead of "optimal min/max builds" which I enjoy. But I like the idea of switching the saves around.

That's fine. I never do optimized min/max builds with my PCs and NPCs, don't recommend that for my players either, nor for anyone else who plays the game. The suggestion for ranger was for thematic reasons, not min/max reasons. However, as you say, a wolf has no hands to disable traps, though should probably be able to Sneak Attack with a bite. In my mind a worg tracks by scent, has d10 HD, is stealthy... if you look at all the ranger abilities it fits worg much better, this is why I suggest ranger as being truly appropos for a worg - but your player should play what he wants.

 

[dragonis111]

Quick suggestion, Give the character a Hand of the Mage for all the fine dexterity things. Lockpicks, trap disarming tools and mechanisms, picking a pocket... you're only limit is 5lbs of weight so all the subtle things a Rogue can do, a handless character should be able to do telekinetically. A 900gp item is comfortably within the range of what a level 5 character could afford.

Oh yeah completely forgot about that magic item, will fit him perfectly, but alas all the characters are starting gear and money free as they are all in a prison, but I'll just make the hand of the mage an item as loot on one of the guards.

EDIT** Whenever my player makes the character soon, I'll post it here.

 

[dragonis111]

That's fine. I never do optimized min/max builds with my PCs and NPCs, don't recommend that for my players either, nor for anyone else who plays the game. The suggestion for ranger was for thematic reasons, not min/max reasons. However, as you say, a wolf has no hands to disable traps, though should probably be able to Sneak Attack with a bite. In my mind a worg tracks by scent, has d10 HD, is stealthy... if you look at all the ranger abilities it fits worg much better, this is why I suggest ranger as being truly appropos for a worg - but your player should play what he wants.

The main thing is the worg can't use weapons so the combat style feats are wasted and it would feel odd with the worg having animal companions, mainly my player has a set of rogue talents planned out which is why he is going rogue, and plans on building around sneak attacks and bleed damage, while running arround and drawing aggro causing general chaos on the battlefield.

 

[gamerprinter]

The main thing is the worg can't use weapons so the combat style feats are wasted and it would feel odd with the worg having animal companions, mainly my player has a set of rogue talents planned out which is why he is going rogue, and plans on building around sneak attacks and bleed damage, while running arround and drawing aggro causing general chaos on the battlefield.

Again playing a rogue worg still works fine. Anything I offer is a suggestion only, in how I would handle the issue (what makes most sense to me, only).

Regarding Hunter's Bond, I would probably not allow a worg to have an animal companion, rather bond with companions (which seems appropriate for a "pack") as in the first option under Hunter's Bond (all of my normal rangers take the first option, and never have an animal companion.)

Regarding Combat Style feats, in 3PP class design, I helped the creation of the Yojimbo archetype for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), which includes 2 new combat styles: iaijutsu and yabusame (neither of which fit a worg). So I would simply create my own worg-ranger archetype with its own unique combat style related to natural attacks, monster feats and tripping - so nothing would be wasted.

For example - Beastial combat style: Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip, Feral Combat Training, and Power Attack; at 6th level add: Bloody Assault and Greater Trip; at 10th level add: Critical Bleeding and Improved Vital Strike.

 

[dragonis111]

Again playing a rogue worg still works fine. Anything I offer is a suggestion only, in how I would handle the issue (what makes most sense to me, only).

Regarding Hunter's Bond, I would probably not allow a worg to have an animal companion, rather bond with companions (which seems appropriate for a "pack") as in the first option under Hunter's Bond (all of my normal rangers take the first option, and never have an animal companion.)

Regarding Combat Style feats, in 3PP class design, I helped the creation of the Yojimbo archetype for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), which includes 2 new combat styles: iaijutsu and yabusame (neither of which fit a worg). So I would simply create my own worg-ranger archetype with its own unique combat style related to natural attacks, monster feats and tripping - so nothing would be wasted.

For example - Beastial combat style: Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip, Feral Combat Training, and Power Attack; at 6th level add: Bloody Assault and Greater Trip; at 10th level add: Critical Bleeding and Improved Vital Strike.

I really love the beastial combat style, anyway though a ranger can get sneak attack and also take two rogue talents? Mainly he wants the two talents fast stealth and rogue crawl, as he intends to stalk his targets and eventually take the assassin prestige class. I know as DM I can allow whatever but I'm trying to keep it fair and balanced for everyone.

 

[gamerprinter]

I really love the beastial combat style, anyway though a ranger can get sneak attack and also take two rogue talents? Mainly he wants the two talents fast stealth and rogue crawl, as he intends to stalk his targets and eventually take the assassin prestige class. I know as DM I can allow whatever but I'm trying to keep it fair and balanced for everyone.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but you're right in that a ranger can get sneak attack. If you opted to use Hunter Tricks from the Skirmisher archetype instead of ranger spells, you can replace any Hunter Trick with a Rogue Talent, plus get some appropriate Hunter Tricks that fit worg too... And if you take some ranks in Disguise (non-class skill), a ranger can still qualify for the Assassin prestige class, if he wants - with better HD and BAB than any rogue.