D&D 5E Aberrant Mind's Psionic Sorcery is officially the most powerful feature.

[doctorbadwolf]

Just to be clear - I said, "is evidence". Not, "is conclusive evidence of...."

Because, normally one takes a whole bunch of pieces of evidence, and weeds through them, and sees if, all together, they reasonably indicate a conclusion. When the Scooby Gang sits down and tries to figure things out, they could reasonably say, "Yeah, and Farmer Jones really was acting strangely, you know, attaching you with a pitchfork when earlier this afternoon you'd shared an ale with him peacably..." along on the stack with all the other bits of strangeness they may have noticed.

This would be one piece. Just one. Not the whole shebang.

And I’m saying that most people won’t even put it down as a piece of evidence, unless it’s very obvious.

 

[Mistwell]

So now that Tasha's is out, does it match the assumptions in this build?

 

[Mistwell]

Psionic Sorcery:

"Beginning at 6th level, when you cast any of the spells gained from your Psionic Spells feature, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points, it requires no components".

Revealed in Tasha, sorcerers (Aberrant Mind and Cloakwork Soul) now have more spells known than wizards prepared spell.
Just like Shadow Sorcerer's The hound of Ill Omem is a Heightein on steroids. Aberrant Mind's Psionic Sorcery is a Subtle Spell with steroids.

Psionic Sorcery + Suggestion is simply undetectable, cannot be counterspellated and it is still possible to add a metamagic effect to it, such as Heightein Spell.
Detect Through is also too useful.


Psionic Sorcery + Suggestion is literally "Fight by my side for 8 hours or 16h (Extended Spell) or 2 creatures (Twin spell)" or any command. In addition to being extremely powerful in magical combat where there is no counterspell and still applies disadvantage on saving throw
View attachment 128306

OK, now that the book is out we can go through this.
1. "Sorcerers have more spells known than wizards prepared spells" Claim

Yes and no. Yes, they have more spells known than wizards prepared spells, but there are other factors involved which impact that issue. First the sorcerer isn't allowed to choose a fair number of those spells (11 of them from levels 1 to 9). Second, a lot of the spells that are added are frankly dud spells that the sorcerer would never have chosen if they had the freedom to choose like the wizard. For example, you were not going to choose calm emotions with those precious known spells. Third, wizards cast a lot of ritual spells that sorcerers don't/cannot. Fourth, because the wizard has a spellbook that allows them to have a LOT LOT LOT more spells to prepare each day, it's kinda disingenuous to discount those along with the concept of prepared spells (and now we have a bunch of new magic items specifically for wizards to know even more spells prepared, throwing this whole issue up in the air).

2. Suggestion spell does not work as you think it works, and that's been officially commented on in Sage Advice multiple times. "Reasonable" is not to attack their friends and allies. It just suggests a belief, not a command. Examples they gave for how it works include, "Flee! A dragon comes." "Don't attack; I intend no harm." "Your sword is cursed. Drop it." "The suggestion spell allows you to compel someone to pursue a course of activity. You could, for example, tell them to go to sleep. That doesn't knock them out; it causes them to try to go to sleep naturally. It isn't magical slumber" The writers also talk about how suggestion might allow you the opportunity to try a persuasion check to convince someone to do something where, without the spell, you wouldn't get a persuasion check. But, "Fight by my side" is a command and not a suggestion of a belief, and would therefore fail. I think it would be pretty difficult to come up with a reasonable suggestion which would provide the belief behind the activity of fighting by your side for 8 hours, particularly against their allies or friends.

3. I feel like you got a bit whacky with the sorcerer points in this thread. When you receive this ability at 6th level you have...6 total sorcery points. So yes, you can use them all to cast a spell like dissonant whispers (which as I explained earlier isn't such an awesome spell at 6th level given a spell like Toll the Dead is already usually doing 2d12 damage as a cantrip by that level). But...I don't think anyone is as impressed by that as you are. It's certainly nice to have more cantrip-like options like mind sliver and dissonant whispers and arms of hadar at 6th level. I think it helps solve one of the more serious issues I've had with the sorcerer, which is their lack of flexibility. But I think in actual play you will be using more sorcery points to be changing your spells with metamagic.

4. We now know what they meant by spell level, and it is not in fact the ability to use spell points to increase the spell level. By spell level, they are referring to that specific chart provided in the book of the bonus spells at specific levels, and those specific levels are the levels they are referencing and not upcasting levels.

All in all, I see why you like the subclass. It does allow more flexibility, and you could cast more lower level spells than before with it. And not all the spells you can cast that way will suck. It's a cool subclass. I don't think it's as powerful as you think it is, but that's OK. A lot of people don't think wizards are as powerful as I think they are.

 

[Hohige]

OK, now that the book is out we can go through this.
1. "Sorcerers have more spells known than wizards prepared spells" Claim

Yes and no. Yes, they have more spells known than wizards prepared spells, but there are other factors involved which impact that issue. First the sorcerer isn't allowed to choose a fair number of those spells (11 of them from levels 1 to 9). Second, a lot of the spells that are added are frankly dud spells that the sorcerer would never have chosen if they had the freedom to choose like the wizard. For example, you were not going to choose calm emotions with those precious known spells. Third, wizards cast a lot of ritual spells that sorcerers don't/cannot. Fourth, because the wizard has a spellbook that allows them to have a LOT LOT LOT more spells to prepare each day, it's kinda disingenuous to discount those along with the concept of prepared spells (and now we have a bunch of new magic items specifically for wizards to know even more spells prepared, throwing this whole issue up in the air).

2. Suggestion spell does not work as you think it works, and that's been officially commented on in Sage Advice multiple times. "Reasonable" is not to attack their friends and allies. It just suggests a belief, not a command. Examples they gave for how it works include, "Flee! A dragon comes." "Don't attack; I intend no harm." "Your sword is cursed. Drop it." "The suggestion spell allows you to compel someone to pursue a course of activity. You could, for example, tell them to go to sleep. That doesn't knock them out; it causes them to try to go to sleep naturally. It isn't magical slumber" The writers also talk about how suggestion might allow you the opportunity to try a persuasion check to convince someone to do something where, without the spell, you wouldn't get a persuasion check. But, "Fight by my side" is a command and not a suggestion of a belief, and would therefore fail. I think it would be pretty difficult to come up with a reasonable suggestion which would provide the belief behind the activity of fighting by your side for 8 hours, particularly against their allies or friends.

3. I feel like you got a bit whacky with the sorcerer points in this thread. When you receive this ability at 6th level you have...6 total sorcery points. So yes, you can use them all to cast a spell like dissonant whispers (which as I explained earlier isn't such an awesome spell at 6th level given a spell like Toll the Dead is already usually doing 2d12 damage as a cantrip by that level). But...I don't think anyone is as impressed by that as you are. It's certainly nice to have more cantrip-like options like mind sliver and dissonant whispers and arms of hadar at 6th level. I think it helps solve one of the more serious issues I've had with the sorcerer, which is their lack of flexibility. But I think in actual play you will be using more sorcery points to be changing your spells with metamagic.

4. We now know what they meant by spell level, and it is not in fact the ability to use spell points to increase the spell level. By spell level, they are referring to that specific chart provided in the book of the bonus spells at specific levels, and those specific levels are the levels they are referencing and not upcasting levels.

All in all, I see why you like the subclass. It does allow more flexibility, and you could cast more lower level spells than before with it. And not all the spells you can cast that way will suck. It's a cool subclass. I don't think it's as powerful as you think it is, but that's OK. A lot of people don't think wizards are as powerful as I think they are.

"There is no comparison, this is the most powerful and most versatile class today. There is no comparison, it would be unfair."

Custom Lineage (Shadar Kai) Aberrat Mind Sorcerer level 10
Starting Stats: For 8 / Dex 15 / Con 14 / Int 8 / Wis 10 / 15 cha
ASIs: Skill Expert (+1 dex, stealth expertise), Metamagic Adept (Extra 2 metamagic option and extra 2 sorcery point), Shadow Touched (+1 CHA, Inflict Wounds)

Metamagic option: Heightein, Twinned Spell, Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell, Distant Spell
Ravnica Background: Dimir

Cantrips Known: Booming Blade, Control Flames, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Green-Flame Blade, Chill Touch
Spells Known: Shield, Dimension Door, Mage Armor, Counterspell, Pass without Trace, Dispel, Earth Eruption, Hipnotic Pattern, Polymorph, Insect Plague, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility (Shadow Touched), Inflict Wounds (Shadow Touched).

Psionic Spell: Sleep, Dissonant Whisper, Mind Spike, Suggestion, Enemies Abound, Clairvoyance, Summon Aberration, Black Tentacles, Dominate Person, Synaptic Static

Magical Guidance You can tap into your inner wellspring of magic to try to conjure success from failure. When you make an ability check that fails, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll the d20, and you must use the new roll, potentially turning the failure into a success.




Highlights

Stealth Casting

Stealth check: +4 Dex, Double Proficiency +8 for +12 Stealth check. That is enough to win most passive perception.
Pass without Trace adds +10, for Sweep +22 Stealth check.

He can freely cast any spell with Psionic Sorcery or Subtle metamagic without leaving the Hidden condition.
Mental spells like Mind Spike, Dominate Person, Dissonant Whisper, Snyptic Static have no visible effects and can simply end the beginning with impunity.

Subtle Greater Invisibility / Invisibility, Stealth Check and Psionic Spell can simply wipe out the enemy anywhere.
If you fail a stealth casting, so Magical Guidances allows a new check.

Mind Controlling and Social GOD:

Psionic Sorcery + Dominate Person / Suggestion combined with Heightein Metamagic can finish off the enemy easily and control them. In combat or not. There is no evidence of spellcasting and there is no contraspell reaction against it.
Using higher level spell combined to Psionic sorcery, you can spend Sorcery Points to upcast it to level 8. Well, you dominate him for 8hours.
You can also twin it, sweet, sweet.
Defeat the enemy with Impunity.
Psionic Mind Spike is the word for a perfect killer.
There is no evidence of spell casting or visual effect, the creature will die with no chance of reaction.
If you want a quick death, Upcast Psionic Spell Sleep + Upcasted Inflict Wounds is critical. It's a lot of damage.
The creature will only fall asleep and will be consumed by Inflict Wounds.
You make an assasin feel worthless.
Also, you are a god for Social Encounters.

Making your party love you:

Twinned Polymorph into Giant Apes for Sweet damage, moviment and 150 tempo HP
Twin Greater Invisibility and your party will love you!
Spam Psionic Dissonant Whisper for party' free oportunity attack.
Dominate a creature with a powerful magical item and give it to your adventure friend

Long range spellcasting and movimentation:

You will certainly adopt casting powerful Distant Insect Plagues at the enemy at 620fts. Or cast Psionic Snapic Static at 300ft.
Psionic Dominate Person at 120ft.
Distant Dimension door for quicken position.
The advantage possibilities in ranged attacks are incredible.

Go into Melee:

Quicken Polymorph into a Giant Ape and multiattacking in the same turn is always fun. Do this and beautiful punches for 50 damage.
Upcasting Inflict Wounds is always fun.

The best mage slayer ever:

Your spells cannot be contraspelled and you can easily subtle counterspell.
Subtle Dispel removes any magical protection from them.

The beating is guaranteed.
but why kill if you can control them? it's fun.


Disabling Spells:

Heightein Hypnotic Patter, Psionic Upcasting Sleep, Psionic Dominate Person, Heightein Fear are always, wtf is that?

Damage resistance immunity?

Don't worry, Subtle Earth Eruption solves this.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

"There is no comparison, this is the most powerful and most versatile class today. There is no comparison, it would be unfair."

View attachment 128673

Custom Race (Shadar Kai) Aberrat Mind Sorcerer level 10
Starting Stats: For 8 / Dex 15 / Con 14 / Int 8 / Wis 10 / 15 cha
ASIs: Skill Expert (+1 dex, stealth expertise), Metamagic Adept (Extra 2 metamagic option and extra 2 sorcery point), Shadow Touched (+1 CHA, Inflict Wounds)

Metamagic option: Heightein, Twinned Spell, Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell, Distant Spell
Ravnica Background: Dimir

Cantrips Known: Booming Blade, Control Flames, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Green-Flame Blade, Chill Touch
Spells Known: Shield, Dimension Door, Mage Armor, Counterspell, Pass without Trace, Dispel, Earth Eruption, Hipnotic Pattern, Polymorph, Insect Plague, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility (Shadow Touched), Inflict Wounds (Shadow Touched).

Psionic Spell: Sleep, Dissonant Whisper, Mind Spike, Suggestion, Enemies Abound, Clairvoyance, Summon Aberration, Black Tentacles, Dominate Person, Synaptic Static

Magical Guidance You can tap into your inner wellspring of magic to try to conjure success from failure. When you make an ability check that fails, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll the d20, and you must use the new roll, potentially turning the failure into a success.




Highlights

Stealth Casting

Stealth check: +4 Dex, Double Proficiency +8 for +12 Stealth check. That is enough to win most passive perception.
Pass without Trace adds +10, for Sweep +22 Stealth check.

He can freely cast any spell with Psionic Sorcery or Subtle metamagic without leaving the Hidden condition.
Mental spells like Mind Spike, Dominate Person, Dissonant Whisper, Snyptic Static have no visible effects and can simply end the beginning with impunity.

Subtle Greater Invisibility / Invisibility, Stealth Check and Psionic Spell can simply wipe out the enemy anywhere.
If you fail a stealth casting, so Magical Guidances allows a new check.

Mind Controlling and Social GOD:

Psionic Sorcery + Dominate Person / Suggestion combined with Heightein Metamagic can finish off the enemy easily and control them. In combat or not. There is no evidence of spellcasting and there is no contraspell reaction against it.
Using higher level spell combined to Psionic sorcery, you can spend Sorcery Points to upcast it to level 8. Well, you dominate him for 8hours.
You can also twin it, sweet, sweet.
Defeat the enemy with Impunity.
Psionic Mind Spike is the word for a perfect killer.
There is no evidence of spell casting or visual effect, the creature will die with no chance of reaction.
If you want a quick death, Upcast Psionic Spell Sleep + Upcasted Inflict Wounds is critical. It's a lot of damage.
The creature will only fall asleep and will be consumed by Inflict Wounds.
You make an assasin feel worthless.
Also, you are a god for Social Encounters.

Making your party love you:

Twinned Polymorph into Giant Apes for Sweet damage, moviment and 150 tempo HP
Twin Greater Invisibility and your party will love you!
Spam Psionic Dissonant Whisper for party' free oportunity attack.
Dominate a creature with a powerful magical item and give it to your adventure friend

Long range spellcasting and movimentation:

You will certainly adopt casting powerful Distant Insect Plagues at the enemy at 620fts. Or cast Psionic Snapic Static at 300ft.
Psionic Dominate Person at 120ft.
Distant Dimension door for quicken position.
The advantage possibilities in ranged attacks are incredible.

Go into Melee:

Quicken Polymorph into a Giant Ape and multiattacking in the same turn is always fun. Do this and beautiful punches for 50 damage.
Upcasting Inflict Wounds is always fun.

The best mage slayer ever:

Your spells cannot be contraspelled and you can easily subtle counterspell.
Subtle Dispel removes any magical protection from them.

The beating is guaranteed.
but why kill if you can control them? it's fun.


Disabling Spells:

Heightein Hypnotic Patter, Psionic Upcasting Sleep, Psionic Dominate Person, Heightein Fear are always, wtf is that?

Damage resistance immunity?

Don't worry, Subtle Earth Eruption solves this.

I agree. Custom races, backgrounds from campaign settings you aren't playing in, and cheating to cast 8th level spells with a 10th level character do make an unbeatable combo.

You win.

 

[Hohige]

I agree. Custom races and cheating to cast 8th level spells with a 10th level character do make an unbeatable combo.

You win.

Custom Lineage is from Tasha's.
Oficial, swap It for V.human and its ok.

 

[Mistwell]

"There is no comparison, this is the most powerful and most versatile class today. There is no comparison, it would be unfair."

View attachment 128673

Custom Race (Shadar Kai) Aberrat Mind Sorcerer level 10
Starting Stats: For 8 / Dex 15 / Con 14 / Int 8 / Wis 10 / 15 cha
ASIs: Skill Expert (+1 dex, stealth expertise), Metamagic Adept (Extra 2 metamagic option and extra 2 sorcery point), Shadow Touched (+1 CHA, Inflict Wounds)

As far as I know you get TWO ASIs by level 10, not three [Edit: and Custom Lineage is "DM's Approval or else default it's not allows" and not OK for optimization builds]. Your first is at level 4, and your second is at level 8. Also, there is no such thing as "Fort" I think you mean Strength.

Metamagic option: Heightein, Twinned Spell, Subtle Spell, Quickened Spell, Distant Spell

As far as I know, you get 3, not 6. Two at 3rd level, one more at 10th level.

Ravnica Background: Dimir

Cantrips Known: Booming Blade, Control Flames, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Green-Flame Blade, Chill Touch

As far as I know, you get 6 cantrips, not 7.

Spells Known: Shield, Dimension Door, Mage Armor, Counterspell, Pass without Trace, Dispel, Earth Eruption, Hipnotic Pattern, Polymorph, Insect Plague, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility (Shadow Touched), Inflict Wounds (Shadow Touched).

Psionic Spell: Sleep, Dissonant Whisper, Mind Spike, Suggestion, Enemies Abound, Clairvoyance, Summon Aberration, Black Tentacles, Dominate Person, Synaptic Static

Edit: How is Pass Without Trace on your spell list?

Sleep is not a Psionic spell. Mind Spike is not a Psionic spell. Suggestion is not a Psionic spell. Enemies Abound is not a Psionic spell. Clairvoyance is not a Psionic spell. Dominate Person is not a Psionic spell. Synaptic Static is not a Psionic spell.

Now you can replace ONE per level, provided the replacement is a divination or an enchantment spell. And of course you can only replace a spell once you have it for a level (you cannot replace simultaneous with obtaining it). So I'd like to see how you got your list, level by level. As you've replaced seven of them, and you very clearly replaced them earlier than you are able to (you get telekinesis and telepathic bond at 9th level so the most you could switch of those is just one of them at 10th level). Your actual list will not be what you listed.

Magical Guidance You can tap into your inner wellspring of magic to try to conjure success from failure. When you make an ability check that fails, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll the d20, and you must use the new roll, potentially turning the failure into a success.

I think this is an optional rule?

As for you highlights, let's fix the problems you have first, and then look again.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Custom Lineage is from Tasha's.
Oficial, swap It for V.human and its ok.

My mistake.

I agree.

Backgrounds from campaign setting you aren't playing in, casting 8th level spells with a 10th level character, endless double metamagicing all your spells, ruling that offensive casting can be done ignoring line of sight, ruling that offensive spell don't make you unhidden make this character AWESOME.

I'd love to have you show up at the table and let us know how the adventure went after you solo everything with this monument of perfection in all situations while our pitiful mortal characters grovel at you feet for scraps of treasure in your wake.

 

[Mistwell]

Custom Lineage is from Tasha's.
Oficial, swap It for V.human and its ok.

Naw optional rules which are 100% "needs DM approval or else by default it's a no" have no place in optimization builds. It's accepted that feats, metamagic, and races listed in DnDBeyond are OK. But not the swapping for variant human custom lineage stuff. That's way out there DM approval level.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Naw optional rules which are 100% "needs DM approval or else by default it's a no" have no place in optimization builds. It's accepted that feats, metamagic, and races listed in DnDBeyond are OK. But not the swapping for variant human custom lineage stuff. That's way out there DM approval level.

I'm still trying to figure out how Pass Without Trace ended up on the spell list.