D&D 5E Ability Score Balance: through the eyes of fresh players

[FrogReaver]

Now I'm remembering the adjustment I was considering making.

Bonus HPs per level up to be based off lowest of Str or Con.

Just brainstorming. I'm thinking something like this:

1. Str Bonus = Bonus determines your armor proficiency (if not already obtained from class). +1 = light. +2 = medium. +3 = heavy. +4 shields. You may grapple or shove as a bonus action Str Mod times per day.

2. Dex Bonus = Dex Mod times per day you may disengage or dash or hide as a bonus action. At +3 Mod your penalty to stealth in medium and heavy armor no longer applies.

3. Int Bonus = Int Mod times per day you may make a Lore check about an enemy you can see or hear as a bonus action. At +1 int mod you learn additional skill and 1 additional language. At +2 int mod you learn 1 wizard cantrip if you do not already know 1. At +3 int mod you learn 1 wizard level 1 spell if you do not already know 1.

4. Cha Bonus = Advantage to Charisma checks X times per day. You may use a Charisma skill in combat as a bonus action X times per day. At +2 cha mod you learn 1 cantrip from bard,sorcerer,warlock. At +3 cha mod you learn 1 spell from bard,sorcerer,warlock. These only apply if you do not already know such spells.

5. Wis Bonus = Reroll Wisdom skills X times per day. At +2 wis you learn 1 cleric or druid cantrip. At +3 wis you learn 1 cleric or druid spell. These only apply if you do not already know such spells.

 

[Raduin711]

In your game maybe, but not in ones I DM.

The DM determines when a check is possible, not the player. He either says 'Yes' and assigns a DC, says 'No need, you succeed' or says 'No'.

Want me to point to the rules in the PHB and DMG that expressly state this?

Watch out now! This is FLAMESTRIKE's table! Ain't no 8 intelligence barbarian making no INT checks! You better check yo'self!

 

[Horwath]

Simply said, there is too much abilities(6) to have them all balanced pretty close.

As mentioned before, and this is not 1st thread about it, 4 abilities would work far better.

Strength(STR);

• melee&thrown attack and damage
• FORT saving throws(current str&con saves)
• starting classes with FORT save; barbarian, fighter
• HP bonus/penalty
• carrying capacity
• minimum STR for most armors(starting with 8 for leather and up to 16 for full plate)
• skills: athletics

Dexterity(DEX);

• ranged&finesse attack and damage
• REF saves(current dex saves)
• starting classes with DEX save; monk, ranger, rogue
• bonus to AC, up to armor limit(3.5e style for each armor)
• initiative
• skills: acrobatics, stealth, thievery

Willpower(WILL)

• spell attack, damage and DCs
• most auras calculation
• WILL saves(current int, wis and cha saves)
• starting classes with WILL save; bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, wizard

CUNNING(CUNN)

• initiative
• bonus languages
• bonus skill proficiency
• bonus tool/weapon proficiency
• skills: arcana, history, nature, religion, insight, medicine, perception, survival, deception, intimidation, perform, persuasion
• classes with 2 starting skills: cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer, wizard
• classes with 3 starting skills: barbarian, druid, monk, warlock
• classes with 4 starting skills: bard, ranger
• classes with 5 starting skills: rogue

Basically, physical and mental stats are divided into "power" and "finesse" part.


2nd topic:
about ability rolls and generation;
I hate rolling due to balance issues and point buy seem to low so it promotes dumping to having two 15s at least.

One solution: remove all racial bonuses to abilities. might require some balancing for human/half-elf.

give everyone same array at start

Examples;
standard;
16,14,14,12,12,10

or more balanced:
14,14,14,14,12,12

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

At level 1 a longbow with +2 dex will do roughly the same as a firebolt -1 hit/+1dmg in comparison.
By level 5 the comparison becomes -2hit/+2dmg
By level 8 the comparison becomes -3hit/+2dmg

If you have 14 dex, extra attack and a longbow then you pretty much keep up with cantrips till level 8. So through most of the game you are relatively close to a cantrip. Probably a little better at low levels and a little worse at high levels.

Of course if you have 12 dex then a caster using a cantrip is better the whole way through.

So what you're saying, is that putting a lower score in your Dex stat will make your Ranged weapon attacks worse?

 

[FrogReaver]

So what you're saying, is that putting a lower score in your Dex stat will make your Ranged weapon attacks worse?

How much are you proposing a str fighter put into dex?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Str as a viable dump o stat is not a thing in our games. Also Int is very questionable as a dumo stat. Would I have liked that Int may have given some extra tool proficiencies or languages? Yes, probably. With xanathar's guide you at least have an easier time to learn new ones. I think this might be a houserule I will use at some point.
Int as initiative might also be fine.

Str is the attribute you use for grappling and tripping. Not that someone with extra attack can counter a grab by just pushing the enemy away 5ft. That allows you to do a second attack afterwards. It alao allows for a push, an attack and then retreat if you want, because you are out of the enemy reach. Initiative is nice.. but as a fighter, sometimes lower initiative is better, since you can't delay efficiently when you have extra attacks. You usually want your wizard to throw the fireball before you. When the engagement starts between 40 and 60 ft away, which happens often enough.
Also, even if you use standard encumbrance, 120 pounds is not that much.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

How much are you proposing a str fighter put into dex?

I'm not. I'm pointing out that Dex is a useful stat even for a Str fighter and that they lose more by having a lower Dex than a Dex fighter loses by having a lower Str.

 

[Imaculata]

I never worry too much about ability points. Often it can be fun to have a character with one really low stat.

 

[Lanefan]

In your game maybe, but not in ones I DM.

The DM determines when a check is possible, not the player. He either says 'Yes' and assigns a DC, says 'No need, you succeed' or says 'No'.

Want me to point to the rules in the PHB and DMG that expressly state this?

Problem is, for knowledge or intelligence checks there's very often no way of knowing whether or not a PC has been exposed to whatever random bit of info is being asked about, mostly because the PC had a life before adventuring which hasn't been played through. Which means a DM can't legitimately say "No" very often.

And so, most of the time a player asking "Does my PC know about [xxxxx]?" is going to force a (probably difficult) check.

 

[Lanefan]

@Horwath - instead of cutting it to four stats I've actually been mulling over the idea of increasing it to twelve, and splitting each existing stat into two parts.

Very - probably too - briefly, it'd look like this:

Str becomes Brawn and [Strength], where Brawn gives combat bonuses and [Strength] gives athletics etc.
Int becomes Reasoning and Memory, where Reasoning is for thinking and Memory is for arcane spell stuff.
Wis becomes Insight and Intuition, where Insight is divine casting and Intuition is perception/divination
Dex becomes Nimbleness and Agility, where Nimbleness is thieving stuff and Agility is dodging/movement
Con becomes Endurance and Fortitude, where Endurance gives h.p. and Fort gives resistance
Cha becomes Willpower and Personality, where Willpower gives mental/spiritual resistance and Personality gives looks and charm.

These would be rolled (yes, ROLLED) in such a way as to make it tricky to become particularly good in both parts of the same previous stat (e.g. it's be hard to be good at both Reasoning and Memory)