D&D General Ability Score Potpourri (Split Dex? Whither Willpower?)

[Minigiant]

@Minigiant and @dnd4vr - The folks I played D&D and WoD with never had trouble with nine. Y'all ever have trouble with folks moving from D&D over adjusting to more stats?

My own custom Urban Fantasy game uses the 8 stats I suggested. The players had no problem with it but the setting and system wasn't D&D like.

The physical bonuses worked the same. Replace crossbows with guns.

The mental stats worked different because most mages were wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, druids, artificers, and clerics at the same time.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Minigiant and @dnd4vr - The folks I played D&D and WoD with never had trouble with nine. Y'all ever have trouble with folks moving from D&D over adjusting to more stats?

No. We've played Vampire and Shadowrun and some others. Vampire has 9 IIRC, and Shadowrun also 9 or 10 maybe??? It has been a while.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I hadn't seen something like that before. That's nice.

Thanks. Others have suggested similar rules. I've play tested it and it works well IMO. It is pretty easy to implement, too, IME.

Does the game need an "smarts" to run? Or just something about how much knowledge the character can have in their brain for memorizing spells and knowledge checks? If it was just "memory" instead of "intelligence" would we lose folks playing someone super smart or super not? Is that bad? (For puzzles, is that just something the DM should aim at the level of the actual players smarts? )

Well, it just depends on what you want. I know I am smart. Smarter than most. So, when I play a PC with an INT 14 or lower, I will hold back on helping solve things and try to let the other players do it first. The same is true when it comes to planning and strategy for an encounter or mission. If the others are having trouble, sometimes I will even roll and INT check for my PC and if I roll well enough I will contribute my ideas and help them, or just tell them the answer to the puzzle, etc. because for me if I am playing a Strong PC with a average to low INT, I want to role-play that part of my character, too.

Sure, sometimes average people have strokes of brilliance, and I allow fate to determine if my PC does. Now, If my PC has INT 16 or better, I will play them as smart as I can.

For your Cha remark, I'm picturing some books where the main character is aghast that someone elses pick-up line with bad delivery actually works. Or folks thinking about politicians on the other side. Or other people with great lines where it just doesn't work.

Yeah, as a DM I just have to sometimes use dice rolls when the PC's ability exceeds the player's. IMO there is nothing wrong with this. If the game had a physical aspect (you do push-ups, and each one represents what your attack d20 roll would be, etc.) then I would have a hard time with that eventually--I'd get tired.

And then making sure the definitions that make sense are balanced...

LOL! At least reasonably so, yeah.

 

[Remathilis]

Stamina - encumbrance, running/jumping/swimming
Muscle - melee weapon attacks, lifting and grappling
Aim - missile weapon attacks, sleight of hand, lockpicking
Balance - AC, Stealth, Tumbling
Health - Hit points
Fitness - resistance to poison and disease
Reason - insight, illusion spell saves, Spell DCs
Knowledge - arcana, religion, history, spells known
Intuition - perception, initiative, Spell DCs
Willpower - saves vs mind affecting, psionics
Leadership - morale, warlordy abilities
Appearance - deception, persuasion, Spell DCs

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah, as a DM I just have to sometimes use dice rolls when the PC's ability exceeds the player's. IMO there is nothing wrong with this. If the game had a physical aspect (you do push-ups, and each one represents what your attack d20 roll would be, etc.) then I would have a hard time with that eventually--I'd get tired.

I sometimes allow players to roll for "what wold their character do" and I as the DM suggest the first thing the PC would think based on their mental score.

 

[Cadence]

Stamina - encumbrance, running/jumping/swimming
Muscle - melee weapon attacks, lifting and grappling
Aim - missile weapon attacks, sleight of hand, lockpicking
Balance - AC, Stealth, Tumbling
Health - Hit points
Fitness - resistance to poison and disease
Reason - insight, illusion spell saves, Spell DCs
Knowledge - arcana, religion, history, spells known
Intuition - perception, initiative, Spell DCs
Willpower - saves vs mind affecting, psionics
Leadership - morale, warlordy abilities
Appearance - deception, persuasion, Spell DCs

viva Skills and Powers?

 

[Remathilis]

viva Skills and Powers?

You win the prize!

 

[Cadence]

You win the prize!

Rereading them recently - Aim and Balance helped solidify my thinking on Dexterity a little. Some of the others (Str, Con, and Chr) helped convince me they weren't worth splitting.

Did you ever play with them? I think we toyed with it and passed. (For a short while in 1e we did use comeliness iirc).

 

[Remathilis]

Did you ever play with them? I think we toyed with it and passed. (For a short while in 1e we did use comeliness iirc).

Surprisingly we did; one of the last 2e games I played was a long-standing college pickup game where we convinced the DM to use S&P and Sp&M rules in it. The game was pretty gonzo as-is, so I don't believe they actually impacted play as much as they probably should have (we had a half-ogre with a 19 str and an old-school Complete Psionics Psionicist, so it was pretty broken off the bat). I know my cleric used it to juice an extra bonus or two to attack and hp, thanks to the wonkiness of 2e ability score mods, but for the most part I don't recall it being really all the different.

That said, a lot of Tasha's systems have got me looking back at the Player's Options as an interesting way that, built from the ground up rather than retrofitted later, might be interesting for customizable races, classes, etc. PO itself was broken, but the idea has some merit.

 

[cbwjm]

Mutants and Masterminds (3e, though 2e may have also done this) adds 2 additional abilities:

1. Dexterity is split into agility (dodging, initiative, stealth, acrobatics) and dexterity (to hit with ranged attacks, sleight of hand, thieves tools).
2. Fighting is your stat for general combat effectiveness (to hit melee attacks, also the parry defence which doesn't exist in DnD). Strength would still determine how much additional damage you do when you hit.

Splitting dexterity into two abilities and adding in fighting could be quite interesting. Now a PC with 18 dexterity would be excellent at ranged attack, but maybe their agility is only 12 so they are still easily hit. Their fighting ability might be 14 meaning that although they are an excellent archer, they aren't as good with their scimitars as a regular DnD character with dexterity 18 would be.