Ability Score Rebalancing

[Blue]

I'd make sure that every ability score has uses in every pillar of play. Some of the pillars may be dominated by skill use so that's effectively already covered, but others not as much. And combat is a pillar of play, so I'd like INT, WIS and CHR to have some effect on combat even for non-casters. For example, if INT also covers speed of thought and wits, make it determine Initiative. This both pulls something away from the "god stat" of DEX as well as making INT more reasonable.

I like how 13th Age does this - several combat related scores use the MIDDLE modifier from three. So your Mental Defense (think 4e like save, where it's a target like AC), which the target used for mental manipulation, psychic attacks, stealth, trickery obfuscation and the like, is determined by the middle modifier of your INT, WIS and CHR.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'd make sure that every ability score has uses in every pillar of play. Some of the pillars may be dominated by skill use so that's effectively already covered, but others not as much. And combat is a pillar of play, so I'd like INT, WIS and CHR to have some effect on combat even for non-casters. For example, if INT also covers speed of thought and wits, make it determine Initiative. This both pulls something away from the "god stat" of DEX as well as making INT more reasonable.

I like how 13th Age does this - several combat related scores use the MIDDLE modifier from three. So your Mental Defense (think 4e like save, where it's a target like AC), which the target used for mental manipulation, psychic attacks, stealth, trickery obfuscation and the like, is determined by the middle modifier of your INT, WIS and CHR.

I go back and forth on int for initiative. The start of a fight is really about reaction speed. Speed of thinking may make a small impact there, but really in intense physical situations you aren't supposed to think because thinking takes to long, you just react. That's definitely a function of dexterity in 5e.

I think the best place to have INT, WIS and Charisma do something for Martial PC's is not through a universal mechanic but class based mechanics. Give the fighter specific benefits for those stats. Give the rogue specific benefits for them. Or do what 5e currently does and if you want an intelligent fighter create a subclass that caters to intelligent fighting. If you want a charismatic rogue then create a swashbuckler subclass. If you want a wise barbarian then create the subclass for it! What about a strong wizard, there's plenty of room for that in a subclass.

That's one place I think we are lacking, we need a lot more subclasses to help realize these missing concepts.

 

[Horwath]

Delete Con, merge it's mechanics into Str

Merge Int, Wis and Cha into one stat: Cunning

Cunning adds extra language, tool and skill proficiency. And bonus to initiative.

Add Willpower as a base stat: Will is used for spellcasting and Will saves(duh) and for certain class features, Paladin save bonuses I.E.

So;

Strength: melee and thrown attack and damage, HPs, Fort saves, carry capacity, armor requirements,

Dexterity: finesse and ranged attack and damage, AC, Reflex saves, initiative bonus,

Willpower: spell attack and damage, spell DCs, Will saves, concentration checks,

Cunning: bonus skill/tool/language proficiency, bonus initiative,

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

@Xeviat I think that basing more on ability scores only serves to grant classes that use that ability score as their primary attack stat those abilities at the expense to other classes. At that point you would be better off just baking the bonus into the classes based on those ability scores than on the ability score itself.

For example. Your intelligence adding extra skills breaks things for me personally.
#1 I don't believe intelligence has anything (or at least very little) to do with athletics or sleight of hand etc. - that is to say many skills aren't dependent on intelligence in the slightest so why would it be the general stat that boosts number of skills

Being intelligent means you will pick up and understand the techniques used in Sleight of hand etc faster. You're still using Dexterity (usually) to apply those techniques in actual use.

#2 It's just a straight up buff to Wizards and any other class that is incentivized for boosting intelligence. Whatever you do for strength or dexterity or wisdom or charisma would also be as well for those respective classes.

I would probably just remove the base skill proficiencies from the wizard class in the case of adopting this system. They'll be fine with those from backgrounds and their bonus intelligence.
A similar system that I have seen mentioned here is Intelligence bonus granting a skill proficiency for every even bonus, and a Language/tool proficiency for every odd one.

I go back and forth on int for initiative. The start of a fight is really about reaction speed. Speed of thinking may make a small impact there, but really in intense physical situations you aren't supposed to think because thinking takes to long, you just react. That's definitely a function of dexterity in 5e.

Think of it as the difference between doing something and doing something meaningful. Reflexes do what you've trained them to do, and Intelligence determines how fast you can sum up a new situation and take action appropriate to it rather than just flailing and screaming.
Deflecting a sword coming at your face is reflex. Identifying the number of combatants and their dispositions in the way a player can see the battle-map, and then decide on tactical action is probably more a function of Intelligence.
Running on reflex, you're probably only going to come up with "lots" and surly". Possibly only after you've stabbed the nearest non-party creature.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I go back and forth on int for initiative. The start of a fight is really about reaction speed. Speed of thinking may make a small impact there, but really in intense physical situations you aren't supposed to think because thinking takes to long, you just react. That's definitely a function of dexterity in 5e.

You know, over the years initiative has taken on a new meaning. Originally, with 1-minutes long rounds, when you went (your initiative) was the moment you spotted your opening to make a significant move. Although your Dexterity does represent your reaction speed, your ability to make the decision to act is your Intelligence, and your will to follow through with a normally dangerous action when you face possible injury or death is certainly Wisdom.

Honestly, you could even claim Strength because that is your muscle, including fast twitch and Charisma, the belief in yourself that you can accomplish your goal. Even Constitution could play a factor as the longer combat goes on the more winded you will become and the slower your response time. Mental fatigue also comes into play as combat goes on.

We debated about using at least Dex, Int, and Wis combined... adding all three modifiers together to determine your initiative modifier.

Each ability score could arguably add to initiative, it just depends on your reasoning and where you want the focus to lie.

 

[DND_Reborn]

One thing I forgot to add before is we no longer add the Dexterity modifier to damage, with Monks being the sole exception. Any bonus to damage comes from Strength. Yeah, people argue that higher Dex allows you to strike more vital spots, etc. Sure, but that is the attack roll and when you are trying to use finesse (hence, the weapon property in use). If you are more likely to hit, you are thus more likely to do damage.

We've even toyed around with the idea that finesse weapons allow you to add BOTH Str and Dex to your attack roll, but you add neither to damage (or maybe just Str still...). Few character builds have very high Str and Dex.

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing I forgot to add before is we no longer add the Dexterity modifier to damage, with Monks being the sole exception. Any bonus to damage comes from Strength. Yeah, people argue that higher Dex allows you to strike more vital spots, etc. Sure, but that is the attack roll and when you are trying to use finesse (hence, the weapon property in use). If you are more likely to hit, you are thus more likely to do damage.

We've even toyed around with the idea that finesse weapons allow you to add BOTH Str and Dex to your attack roll, but you add neither to damage (or maybe just Str still...). Few character builds have very high Str and Dex.

If I was going to do that I'd probably allow finesse weapons to do 2x str mod in damage (max 5).

This would simulate your more accurate strikes costing less strength to do the damage. Some Strength would still be required but not as much as you would be hitting the correct spot

 

[FrogReaver]

Being intelligent means you will pick up and understand the techniques used in Sleight of hand etc faster. You're still using Dexterity (usually) to apply those techniques in actual use.

There's a difference between knowing how someone else does something and why it works and being able to actually do that on your own. I'm fairly smart, definitely smarter than a lot of high school jocks, and yet everyone of them can throw a spiral football or shoot a basketball better than me. Even if I understand how it was supposed to be done I'm still not going to be able to become proficient in the skill because my low str and dex prevent me from doing so.

So IMO

the better argument would be that dexterous characters can learn dex based skills easier because they have to spend less time successfully mastering those skills. Dex rather than INT should be what impacts the speed of learning dex skills (if you really want to go this route)​

Basically athletic knowledge, slight of hand knowledge are different than intelligence based knowledge.

Deflecting a sword coming at your face is reflex. Identifying the number of combatants and their dispositions in the way a player can see the battle-map, and then decide on tactical action is probably more a function of Intelligence.
Running on reflex, you're probably only going to come up with "lots" and surly". Possibly only after you've stabbed the nearest non-party creature.

When my combats start it's because sometime within the next 6 seconds someone is going to be swinging a sword at you. While the players will often assess the situation at that moment (effectively catching up to speed with their character), the character doesn't have time to do anything but the most basic reactionary assessment of the situation at that time.

 

[5ekyu]

LOL at yet people keep using them. Personally, other than DEX being a bit overly useful in combat, I've never had an issue with balance per se. But if you think they are bad, what would you suggest?

Actually once you step,outside the dnd/srd/d20 bubble it seems like very many games abandoned these six in favore of more or less.

If i were going to build a set from scratch - it would start at 9.

There would be a triad of stats for each "focus".

Physical - strength, dex, con

Intellect - knowledge, wits, discipline

Social - charisma, influence, composure (or cool)

In each triad, they reflect in order power, finesse and toughness.

So the first stat is used for direct and forceful, the second for sophisticated or delicate and the latter is your resistance or defensive stat.

Not the key if for different games and setting you can add more or different triads.

Maybe you add Faith or Tech or Superpower or Cybered or Status/Honor or etc etc etc

The key being each triad is intended to covert a significant element of the game/campaign so really the balance is dine at the choice of triads, not the specific ability levels.

 

[5ekyu]

To me there is a serious flaw in the framing. Basically not alk ability checks adding to saves and checks are equal.

Sure we can,point to str having carry capacity as an extra feature but when we compare that to Cha ans say Cha needs more we are ignoring that Cha carries a lot of the weight for the social pillar on its own with the four skills it adds to. Compared with Athletics - thats not a wash that leaves us needing to find something to help Cha.

In actual play, in terms of "rolls that matter" and "values that matter" what i have seen is that Int is the only one getting a less frequent level of use but that us highly dependent on the nature of the challenges and especially how much the GM makes Investigation matter.

But, the notion that in 5e games Cha and Wis arent getting rolled enough and playing a role enough to need more stuff added is very much i see a case of the assumptions being made.