Ability Scores

[Buugipopuu]

Raw scores being used for more than just prerequisites is something I support. Things like PF's use of raw Con as the buffer between unconsciousness and death, rather than flat -10s in 3.x.

Ability increases by level are fine, but 3.x could be improved on since going from 17 to 18 is quite expensive at chargen (either in terms of actual points or luck), but going from 17 to 18 at 4th level costs as much as going from a 10 to an 11. Just making level-up bonuses have the same price:benefit curve as point buy (even if you're not actually using point buy) should slow ability score bloat (and make buying an 18 at chargen less important).

I'd like to see some option rules presented in core for "appearance" or "comeliness" as a 7th stat.

No.

Different species have totally different standards of beauty, which makes a universal beauty stat pointless. Nothing short of a Glamer spell should make you more attractive to everyone. Either you have dumb situations like the following:

"The Gibbering Mouther attempts to seduce you. Unfortunately for you, it's a damn sexy Gibbering Mouther, and has Comeliness 20, and rolls a 25. You want to do horrible indescribable carnal acts with it."

Or you have equally dumb situations where orcs, because they're unattractive by human standards, somehow find humans more attractive than other orcs, which isn't how species work.

Alternatively you have a zillion Comeliness circumstance modifiers in a giant grid for inter-racial interaction, which is too rules-bloaty even for me, and I love rules bloat.

 

[Minigiant]

1) Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

2)
Strength: Physical Power and Force. The character's raw muscle
Dexterity: Physical Coordination and Agility. The character's ability to accurately control their mind.
Constitution: Physical Endurance and Stamina. How much the energy and hardiness the character's body has.
Intelligence: Mental Coordination and Agility. How fast the character can process, learn, and recall information
Wisdom: Mental Endurance and Stamina. The character's ability to withstand mental changes and be aware of the personalities and views of others.
Charisma: Mental Power and Force. The character's ability to force their personality and views on others.

Decouple perception from wisdom and speed from dexterity. Makes those and comeliness based on race and class.

3) I'm torn. I want ability scores to matter a lot BUT I don't want to encourage "perfect builds", race/class tiers,

I want ability scores increases to be removed from levels. After level 1, there should be only certain ways to increase abilities

Training: After X number of levels in a class, the character gets an increase in the class's primary ability score.
Evolution: PC can gain templates like lycantrope, fey, vampire, etc to get ability increases.
Age: Up mind down body after some many years.
Permanent Magic: Kill dragon, take horde, buy rare junk, pay wizard to cast a ritual, get increase.


So a halfling fighter could start with 15 Strength at age 27
25 years and 7 levels later
+1 Str from being a 8th level fighter
-1 Str from being middle aged
+1 Str from being a wereleopard
+2 Str from his wizard ally performing a ritual on him during the party's 5 year downtime.


DMs can control how which ones PCs can get in the scope of

 

[howandwhy99]

More specifically:

1. From the basic list of Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, are there any that you would like out in the next edition? Are there any others you would like in?
2. What would each of the abilities mean? What would an increase of them give to an unclassed character, for example? How would certain classes particularly benefit from certain ability scores?
3. How much would you want the ability scores to define your character? How much should this change over time? How much should ability scores change, if at all?

1. I like all of 'em. I don't see D&D getting away with changing these without some uproar, so I can live with "the big six".

2. Each could mean something different at each table. I'm okay with that. I like the 3-18 bell curve point spread as Haliver mentioned. I like rolling scores not picking them. Classes have SAD and MAD already built in. Being able to play any core class with any score would be beneficial.

3. I don't think they define the character absolutely, but they should have an effect. 3 STR means you are weaker than normal, 18 STR means you are at the top end of human ability. How this affects your class actions depends on the class. Increases could be via training, but I think that should be weighted towards a non-adventuring NPC option rather than a PC one. Magic is the way to go here. I don't have a problem with magical increases, but they should be weighted to how powerful they are too.


As an aside, SAD & MAD (single or multiple ability dependance) were built into minimums for sub-classes in AD&D. I could see that again. If a Ranger really does need 4 scores of a specific levels to capably be a ranger, than those should be requirements. I don't have a problem with rolling more than once for this class or picking from a list of pre-rolled stats to get 'em.

 

[Sunseeker]

No.

Different species have totally different standards of beauty, which makes a universal beauty stat pointless. Nothing short of a Glamer spell should make you more attractive to everyone. Either you have dumb situations like the following:

"The Gibbering Mouther attempts to seduce you. Unfortunately for you, it's a damn sexy Gibbering Mouther, and has Comeliness 20, and rolls a 25. You want to do horrible indescribable carnal acts with it."

Or you have equally dumb situations where orcs, because they're unattractive by human standards, somehow find humans more attractive than other orcs, which isn't how species work.

Alternatively you have a zillion Comeliness circumstance modifiers in a giant grid for inter-racial interaction, which is too rules-bloaty even for me, and I love rules bloat.

I would argue that the simple solution is that comliness would only apply to your own race and have reduced effectivness on near-races.

Taking the example to exaggeration doesn't really disprove the point. Besides, the stat would mostly be for bonuses to diplomacy checks on other intelligent species.

But like I said, "optional". I'd just like the IDEA presented in core.

 

[Reaper Steve]

I think that Reflexes and Willpower would be better stats than Dexterity and Wisdom, respectively. Why? Well, the definitions of of the words 'Reflexes' and 'Willpower' better match what those scores are used for in the game than their current names.

I also dislike how Wisdom is usually explained as some combination of Willpower and Perception... to me, those aren't related at all. I would add an 'Awareness' stat, which encompasses Perception and more.

I also think Charisma should be changed to something else, as the word is defined as a 'Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others' (per google.) But in the game, it is used for all aspects of leadership and force of personality. the term 'leadership' may work, but I think I prefer the Hero System's 'Presence.'

Finally, I think 6 is the right number of stats, so I need to drop one. The one I'd drop? As shocking as it may be... Intelligence. I don't want a number swaying how players play their character (or two numbers for that matter[Wisdom].) Everything that the game uses INT for can be better served by another stat. Arcane magic could require Willpower to control, while Divine magic is best channeled by those with the strongest Presence.

So, my list would be:
Strength
Constitution
Reflexes
Awareness
Willpower
Presence (I feel their may be a better word, but it's not coming to mind.)

This is all an exercise in futility, though, as there is no way WotC will tamper with the 6 sacred stats. But if they did... I'd also prefer Armor Class be replaced by 'Defense.'

 

[trancejeremy]

As a Call of Cthulhu fan, where they basically renamed Charisma to Appearance, I find it useful - to a certain extent, you can get a pretty good idea of what someone looks likes from their attributes.

And to a certain extent, considering that most humanoids in D&D can interbreed, there probably are certain standards of beauty among them.

 

[Szatany]

But I wanna go straight back to 1st Edition on ability scores and score bonuses. Where a 9 wasn't the end of the world, and a 16 wasn't super heroic. Where you didn't pout if your highest score was a 14, or your lowest a 6. Where 18 was REALLY something special.

Just remember, you can't have that kind of feeling with point buy.

 

[The Shadow]

So, my list would be:
Strength
Constitution
Reflexes
Awareness
Willpower
Presence

...I actually quite like that list. I could get behind it. Though you're right, there's basically no chance it will happen.

Perhaps instead of Intelligence, we could take a page from Traveller and have a stat for Education.

Arcane magic could require Willpower to control, while Divine magic is best channeled by those with the strongest Presence.

And the sorcerer could use Awareness. The idea being, he has innate Second Sight, and can pick up on the flow of magic around him.

If Education were included, it would be the obvious stat for wizards.

 

[Halivar]

Just remember, you can't have that kind of feeling with point buy.

This is true. But in all my years of gaming, I have never once played in a group that used point buy. But you raise a very valid point. It's my understanding that most groups (is this correct?) use point buy, and therefore the system used in 1st Ed. is probably inappropriate.

Which makes me very, very sad.

 

[Grazzt]

This is true. But in all my years of gaming, I have never once played in a group that used point buy.

Neither have I. And my players (now and in the past) have always preferred rolling for their scores.