AD&D First Edition inferior?

William Roland - you're my ninja.

Just put me down for a big 'ditto' under everything WR just said.

Keep the fun the game folks - that's all that matters.
 

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Reminds me of a question.


Q:When was the golden age of gaming?

A:When I was 12. I had time to play, a bunch of other kids to play with, and I was at an age where it was still alright to order a happy meal. Nowadays, the clerk at McDonald's just looks at me strangely when I start playing with the free toy.
 

Saves in 1st edition were fine?


Why did you save vs. spell against a fireball if someone cast it, but vs r/s/w if it came from a wand? I've ALWAYS wanted to know that.


If you like your fighters never being competently able to move silently, just because they are fighters, use an earlier edition.

If you like great elven wizards who cant pass 11th level and doughty dwarven warriors who can't hold a candle to humans, play an earlier edition.

If you like not being able to learn magic just because you learned to use a sword unless you are one of the most intelligent people on the planet, then play an earlier edition.

A human who is skilled in multiple disciplines simultaneously? Impossible, because humans can't multiclass.

Because.



If you like older editions, play them, no problem to me. But please, please don't come here and claim that they are better then the soulless PC junk that we play, or that older editions had something that 3E lacks. In 3E you have options that you didn't have in older editions. You can always take away options, but it's really hard to insert them when they weren't there in the first place.
 
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Typical 1e adventuring party:

1. Half-elf Ranger, skilled with the bow and longsword.

2. Human Paladin

3. Human Wizard (or magic-user)

4. Dwarven Fighter, skilled with a battle axe.

5. Elven Fighter-magic-user.

6. Hafling Thief

7. Human Cleric



Typical 3e adventuring party

1. Human multiclass Paladin/Wizard/Cleric with an open locks and find traps skill and an Arcane Archer prestige class.
 

Originally posted by johnsemlak Typical 3e adventuring party

1. Human multiclass Paladin/Wizard/Cleric with an open locks and find traps skill and an Arcane Archer prestige class. [/B]

LOL! Completely and utterly untrue, of course.

If you gave me the choice between a group of four multi-classes or a group of four single classes in 3E of equivalent level, then I'd choose the single classes every time.

Especially with the spell-using classes: they are much, much, much better when single-classed.

A Wizard 4/Rogue 5 vs. a Wizard 9 is no contest at all with regards to utility to the adventuring party.

This is not to say that the multi-class system in 3E can't be abused, however it just requires a bit of DM vigilance or the laying down of ground rules at the start of the campaign.

In 1E, Gygax had done this for us. In 3E, we're trusted enough to make the decisions ourselves. ;) Both approaches are valid.

Cheers!
 

johnsemlak said:


Typical 3e adventuring party

1. Human multiclass Paladin/Wizard/Cleric with an open locks and find traps skill and an Arcane Archer prestige class.


Okay, yeah. Go ahead and spend those 2+int mod skill points on open locks and find traps, both of which are cross-class. The dragon will find your mastery of the multiclassing system VERY impressive, before he eats you.

Jeesh. Just because you *can* multiclass doens't mean that everyone does it. In fact, I'd say 90% of the characters I've encountered have been single-classed.



5. Elven Fighter-magic-user.


Just for the record, this guy is the true 1E munchkin. Everyone knows that true muchkins play dual-wielding elven-chain-wearing fighter-magic-users. Anything less would be uncivilized.
 
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women get +2 to CON?

Returning to the hijack ... I mean fascinating discussion of women's physical capacities…

As I understand it, there is a lot of evidence that women have greater stamina and pain-tolerance than men. I saw a documentary years ago which tried to come up with a meaningful way of describing the pain of childbirth to men. They attached electrodes or brain-scans or whatever to women during childbirth and then tried to find equivalent readings in the male experience. The best they could come up with was to describe childbirth as like a man being kicked in the groin, repeatedly, at ever decreasing intervals, over a period of hours….

Now I question the scientific method of the documentary (and the ethics!) but the point is a good one. Women's primary biological purpose is to do something VERY painful and traumatic and not only survive it, but survive it well enough to go on to care for the product and do it all over again several times.

Studies on endurance and stamina have also shown similar results. As an English relative of mine once said, drop a man and a women into freezing water in a shipwreck and always bet on the woman lasting longer. Apparently that's backed up by survival rates of women and men in shipwrecks, hunger situations, etc, etc...

So, if women have such better stamina, why don't they beat men in marathons? Because they're slower and weaker. Marathons are tests of both speed and endurance.

If you’re going to do physical modifiers for men and women, then by all means give males a +2 to STR, but also give females a +2 to CON.

One of the attempted theoretical explanations for this disparity I've heard is evolutionary. Women, as child bearers, are nature’s “safe bet.” They're built to last and survive and are also given the social skills to make use of others' skills. Men are nature's “wild cards.” Since their reproduction role is relatively minor, they can be expendable. Thus they are the ones doing all the risky behaviours and having the strength to be suited to hunting, defending the cave, etc.

This wild card theory is also often used to explain the different standard deviations of men and women's performance. For example, while men and women have approximately the same mean intelligence (in fact, I think there's evidence that women have a slightly higher mean), women have a much lower standard deviation. There are many more male than female geniuses; but, conversely, there are far more male than female morons. Women are natures safe bets; men are the wild cards.

I don't know wether the theory's right. But it's interesting...
 

But please, please don't come here and claim that they are better then the soulless PC junk that we play, or that older editions had something that 3E lacks.
Until the Creature Catalog and Tome of Horrors came to light, you bet earlier editions had something for me that 3E didn't. IMO, cool monsters matter more than petty little saving throw quibbles - refer to Hackmaster thread for more on this line of argument...
In 3E you have options that you didn't have in older editions.
Indeed. You also have more to ignore if you don't want said options...
You can always take away options, but it's really hard to insert them when they weren't there in the first place.
What you say seems plausible in theory, but doesn't really work in practice. Try ripping out feats and AoO from 3E, and see how easy that is. Now try adding ability checks and critical hits to 1E.
 

Getting rid of AoOs is quite easy. Ignore them. If you just forget about them, they can't hurt you, and the only thing that remains is a few feats, but you can just ignore those feats as well. You're missing something, but if you want to get rid of them then apparently you didn't like that thing to begin with.

As for feats, you could ignore them as well. Yes, this will make the fighter a poor class, but if you like older editions, it will return the class to the same way it was before. Or, you could make predefined feat progressions for each class, and not give the options to your players as to what to pick.

Now, I wouldn't want to play in a game like this, but hey, if you want to make 3E more like 1 and 2E...
 

MerricB said:


LOL! Completely and utterly untrue, of course.

If you gave me the choice between a group of four multi-classes or a group of four single classes in 3E of equivalent level, then I'd choose the single classes every time.

Especially with the spell-using classes: they are much, much, much better when single-classed.

A Wizard 4/Rogue 5 vs. a Wizard 9 is no contest at all with regards to utility to the adventuring party.

This is not to say that the multi-class system in 3E can't be abused, however it just requires a bit of DM vigilance or the laying down of ground rules at the start of the campaign.

In 1E, Gygax had done this for us. In 3E, we're trusted enough to make the decisions ourselves. ;) Both approaches are valid.

Cheers!

Yeah, I know all that :), I was joking anyway. :D LOL

I agree 3e is technically superior.

However, I do feel the race/class restrictions did help encourage players to create characters that conform to popular archetypes, and that is very much what attracted players to D&D in the first place. Halfling paladins and dwarf wizard/clerics just seem stupid, they don't make the fantasy world work for me. Of course the DM can disallow them, but I think the 1e rules did a better job of creating the setting which attracted may people to the game.

Of course, some people are bound to have different ideas than Gygax on what races could cast spells and so forth (CS Lewis's Narnia series features a spellcasting Dwarf). Many of use were also duly annoyed by the level limits and the fact that certain class/race combinations were disallowed--thus we ignored the rules we didn't like.

My theory: 3e is superior technically, but it wouldn't draw people to the game the way that 1e did. 3e is popular because it is an improvement on the 1e game, but as a stand alone product it wouldn't create the cult following 1e did.

On a separate and blatently off topic note to MerricB:

Have a good time watching the Grand Final on Saturday. I'll be up bright and early at 8:00 am in Moscow for it.
 

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