AD&D First Edition inferior?
- Thread starter Theuderic
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BonesMcCoy
Explorer
My two coppers...
Being no insult here, but it's kind of ironic that a 3E gamer used to do this, what with all the pierced PC's and all
Isn't the success of HackMaster proof of that demand? And that's success in spite of it's comedy approach and additional complicated rules.
I remember you mentioning this before. It is indeed very interesting, and gratifying for the grognards It also makes quite a case for the missing hordes of 1E gamers 'out there'. A very large portion of the 3E crowd is new gamers, I assume we can all agree on this. So a large portion of the 1E crowd has not been lured back. Naturally all those gamers are not still playing now, but with the right version of AD&D/D&D couldn't a lot of them be brought back into the fold? At any case, certainly more of them than 3E has brought back so far.
Also, this may show a significant flaw in WotC's original plan. Since the number of 1E gamers was so large, wouldn't it have been better to target 3E to them instead of new players? After all, 1E was the game that attracted all these gamers in the first place so a 3E based on 1E could still theoretically do the same thing - attract a huge number of new fans, while also bringing back all the old fans. Now that would certainly result in larger numbers than 3E has seen so far, and hopefully not cause the slowdown the d20 market is currently seeing.
And on a different note: It's strange to me how everyone keeps saying the OGL is a masterwork and that 3E is selling like crazy. If these things were true why all the layoffs? Why has almost everyone who had anything to do with these two things been laid off now? Ryan Dancey is gone, Monte Cook, Skip Williams and lots of others. Of course you'll say it's just stupid Hasbro, they only care about the bottom line. But isn't that exactly the point? Hasbro keeps cutting WotC because they are not happy with their bottom line. And not just the card people, but RPG people too. If 3E is selling so well why is Hasbro laying it's designers off? Surely they should be kept around to design more masterworks in the future. And surely they should be full-time Hasbro employees instead of free-lancers because Hasbro wouldn't want anyone else to employ their genius. And if the OGL is such a success why did Hasbro let Dancey go? Surely they should be chasing him down begging him to come work for them full-time with all kinds of benefits. Surely they would be pleading with him to design more masterful business plans for their other products.
Ah well, I'm no business person so I probably just don't understand these things.
Being no insult here, but it's kind of ironic that a 3E gamer used to do this, what with all the pierced PC's and all
Isn't the success of HackMaster proof of that demand? And that's success in spite of it's comedy approach and additional complicated rules.
I remember you mentioning this before. It is indeed very interesting, and gratifying for the grognards
It also makes quite a case for the missing hordes of 1E gamers 'out there'. A very large portion of the 3E crowd is new gamers, I assume we can all agree on this. So a large portion of the 1E crowd has not been lured back. Naturally all those gamers are not still playing now, but with the right version of AD&D/D&D couldn't a lot of them be brought back into the fold? At any case, certainly more of them than 3E has brought back so far.Also, this may show a significant flaw in WotC's original plan. Since the number of 1E gamers was so large, wouldn't it have been better to target 3E to them instead of new players? After all, 1E was the game that attracted all these gamers in the first place so a 3E based on 1E could still theoretically do the same thing - attract a huge number of new fans, while also bringing back all the old fans. Now that would certainly result in larger numbers than 3E has seen so far, and hopefully not cause the slowdown the d20 market is currently seeing.
And on a different note: It's strange to me how everyone keeps saying the OGL is a masterwork and that 3E is selling like crazy. If these things were true why all the layoffs? Why has almost everyone who had anything to do with these two things been laid off now? Ryan Dancey is gone, Monte Cook, Skip Williams and lots of others. Of course you'll say it's just stupid Hasbro, they only care about the bottom line. But isn't that exactly the point? Hasbro keeps cutting WotC because they are not happy with their bottom line. And not just the card people, but RPG people too. If 3E is selling so well why is Hasbro laying it's designers off? Surely they should be kept around to design more masterworks in the future. And surely they should be full-time Hasbro employees instead of free-lancers because Hasbro wouldn't want anyone else to employ their genius. And if the OGL is such a success why did Hasbro let Dancey go? Surely they should be chasing him down begging him to come work for them full-time with all kinds of benefits. Surely they would be pleading with him to design more masterful business plans for their other products.
Ah well, I'm no business person so I probably just don't understand these things.
MeepoTheMighty
First Post
Re: My two coppers...
The majority of "missing" 1E gamers didn't stop playing because of 3E, they stopped playing because they grew up, got married, got promoted, had responsibilities, and had better things to do with their Friday nights than sitting around pretending to be wizards.
The game is targeted towards all players, young and old alike. The assassin, barbarian, and monk are in there to appease the grognards.
I, for one, wouldn't have paid money for a rehashing of 1E/2E. If you ask me, the game and its mechanics had grown stale, and it was time for a change.
Maybe they were planned from day one. Once you publish the core books, you don't need as large a staff. I don't sit on Hasbro's board, so I don't know for sure.
Monte Cook left of his own free will.
There aren't that many more masterworks that need to be made.
That's a cost-benefit analysis that I'm sure management looked at before they laid these people off.
I dunno. Maybe they decided his job was redundant? Again, I don't know.
Me neither.
bones_mccoy said:
I remember you mentioning this before. It is indeed very interesting, and gratifying for the grognards
The majority of "missing" 1E gamers didn't stop playing because of 3E, they stopped playing because they grew up, got married, got promoted, had responsibilities, and had better things to do with their Friday nights than sitting around pretending to be wizards.
The game is targeted towards all players, young and old alike. The assassin, barbarian, and monk are in there to appease the grognards.
I, for one, wouldn't have paid money for a rehashing of 1E/2E. If you ask me, the game and its mechanics had grown stale, and it was time for a change.
Maybe they were planned from day one. Once you publish the core books, you don't need as large a staff. I don't sit on Hasbro's board, so I don't know for sure.
Monte Cook left of his own free will.
There aren't that many more masterworks that need to be made.
That's a cost-benefit analysis that I'm sure management looked at before they laid these people off.
I dunno. Maybe they decided his job was redundant? Again, I don't know.
Me neither.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Re: My two coppers...
Anyway, we don't have any numbers so this is all pretty pointless.
All I'm saying is that, according to the reports from WotC employees that I have read, 3E is selling very well. I believe Anthony Valterra is on record as saying that the D&D group of WotC is one of its top earners. This indicates that the business plan is doing well.
The fact that there may be a large market unserved by WotC (not that anyone has demonstrated that there is) does not mean the plan is flawed. Not if they're making as much money as they expected to. It's all about hitting targets, not about maximizing revenue.
We're talking about a company that sells Monopoly, a game that hasn't changed nor shifted its position on toy store shelves for 50 years or so. Why wouldn't they want to do exactly the same thing with the PHB? Keep on selling it, maybe not a massive number but if they've got no R&D staff, no designers and no writers to support they don't need to sell a lot to make a tidy profit. Let the third parties create all the goodies that keep it selling. I mean, I don't know how many copies of Monopoly they sell each year, but I bet it's always in the top ranks of tabletop games. This from a product that literally has not changed for decades. Designers? What designers?
So you see, if 3E is selling well, there's still motivation for Hasbro to cut staff. They might very well keep cutting staff. It doesn't follow that because Hasbro is gutting the creative team the company must be suffering from low sales.
No company in the world wants full-time employees. Part-timers cost less in every way except long-term loyalty. And why would Hasbro be concerned about keeping people's genius to themselves? Again, you're misunderstanding the plan. They WANT other companies to be producing incredibly cool d20 products based on the SRD. That's exactly what they want because every one of those products helps to sell the PHB.
Now I don't know any better than anyone else what's really going on. I just know what Mr. Dancey has said, and other WotC employees. I don't have any numbers, but neither does anyone else. All I'm saying is that the actions we've seen fit the plan, and there isn't any evidence to suggest that the plan isn't working. And that includes massive layoffs, not caring about theoretical masses of cranky 1E holdouts and the success of Hackmaster.
EDIT: Hey Meepo, are we tag-teaming AGAIN? What's up with that?
Ah! Good call! What exactly is the success of Hackmaster? How many people are buying it and who are they? I *suspect* it's an insignificant number compared to the number of people buying 3E, but I don't know. Anyone with numbers here?bones_mccoy said:
Lots of this argument depends on numbers we don't have. First of all, we need to know sales figures for, let's say, both 1985 and 2002. Then we have to know what percentage of the sales of 3E were to new gamers -- you're assuming most are new gamers but that is certainly not my experience. Without some evidence I'm not going to agree to that point at all. In fact, I assert the opposite -- that most people who purchased the 3E PHB already owned either 1E or 2E PHBs.
Anyway, we don't have any numbers so this is all pretty pointless.
All I'm saying is that, according to the reports from WotC employees that I have read, 3E is selling very well. I believe Anthony Valterra is on record as saying that the D&D group of WotC is one of its top earners. This indicates that the business plan is doing well.
The fact that there may be a large market unserved by WotC (not that anyone has demonstrated that there is) does not mean the plan is flawed. Not if they're making as much money as they expected to. It's all about hitting targets, not about maximizing revenue.
What makes you think that's not exactly what has happened? It's exactly what happened to me. I'm an old fan. My wife is a new fan. We both play 3E. Where's your evidence that these huge numbers of unsatisfied 1E fans even exist?
Stupid Hasbro? Only time will tell. It looks to me like they're following the business plan to its proper conclusion -- cut out everything that isn't high-margin -- that is, everything but the PHB. Provide the SRD so that third-party groups can generate the network of supporting materials that keeps PHB sales high.
We're talking about a company that sells Monopoly, a game that hasn't changed nor shifted its position on toy store shelves for 50 years or so. Why wouldn't they want to do exactly the same thing with the PHB? Keep on selling it, maybe not a massive number but if they've got no R&D staff, no designers and no writers to support they don't need to sell a lot to make a tidy profit. Let the third parties create all the goodies that keep it selling. I mean, I don't know how many copies of Monopoly they sell each year, but I bet it's always in the top ranks of tabletop games. This from a product that literally has not changed for decades. Designers? What designers?
So you see, if 3E is selling well, there's still motivation for Hasbro to cut staff. They might very well keep cutting staff. It doesn't follow that because Hasbro is gutting the creative team the company must be suffering from low sales.
No company in the world wants full-time employees. Part-timers cost less in every way except long-term loyalty. And why would Hasbro be concerned about keeping people's genius to themselves? Again, you're misunderstanding the plan. They WANT other companies to be producing incredibly cool d20 products based on the SRD. That's exactly what they want because every one of those products helps to sell the PHB.
Now I don't know any better than anyone else what's really going on. I just know what Mr. Dancey has said, and other WotC employees. I don't have any numbers, but neither does anyone else. All I'm saying is that the actions we've seen fit the plan, and there isn't any evidence to suggest that the plan isn't working. And that includes massive layoffs, not caring about theoretical masses of cranky 1E holdouts and the success of Hackmaster.
EDIT: Hey Meepo, are we tag-teaming AGAIN? What's up with that?
Last edited:
MeepoTheMighty
First Post
Re: Re: My two coppers...
I guess we both get in our argumentative moods around the same time of night.
barsoomcore said:
I guess we both get in our argumentative moods around the same time of night.
Theuderic
First Post
Well the response to the thread I started has been amazing. Thanks to everyone who has responded. Especially Mr. Gygax!
Obviously there are MANY veiws on this topic and I have read all of them. I must say I'm as bewildered as I was from the beginning lol! Again thanks everyone for helping me with my study.
Obviously there are MANY veiws on this topic and I have read all of them. I must say I'm as bewildered as I was from the beginning lol! Again thanks everyone for helping me with my study.
Last edited:
GENEWEIGEL
Explorer
Alright would you vote for me for President of the United States in lieu of having a new 1st edition friendly SRD?
Dammit! I showed my cards too soon!
Dammit! I showed my cards too soon!
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Boy Howdy! Did you ever!GENEWEIGEL said:
But I want 1E rules in an SRD -- or even better, made public domain. That'd be great. I just don't see any reason for Wizards to do it.
But maybe they would do it just because I asked nice...
Actually, you know what, being Canadian, I'd vote for just about anyone who'd let me!
GENEWEIGEL FOR PRESIDENT!
Re
To answer the original question, 1st edition D and D is inferior to Third edition strictly from a rules standpoint. The 3rd edition rules provide more information for the DM and players to handle different situations and events that occur in game.
As far as concept and creativity, they are about the same. Why? 3rd edition incorporates much of what was great about 1st edition from a creativity standpoint.
As far as sex goes, I can tolerate females having equal strength for a fantasy game. I don't care.
Please don't try to bring real life into it. I have met too many modern day males who are too weak to live up to the expectations of being a man. They fall back on the relativist thinking that somehow tries to teach that men and women are equal.
Wake up to the real world and be a man. Men and women aren't equal. They never will be. You are meant to be warrior of the group just as you have been since the dawn of man. Stop trying to make believe that somehow men dominated the world for so long by accident.
It was no accident that men have been the dominant sex for as long as recorded history in 99.9% of world cultures. Men are more aggressive, stronger, and more powerful than women. Only in a peaceful world without war will woman gain even a small measure of equality, and even then it will be hard fought. Males are aggressive, and it is almost impossible to breed out of us. It hardly means 100%, but it definitely means the majority.
I don't think women should be sitting at home doing nothing. It simply means men and women should learn to embrace their differences and work to each other's strengths. They shouldn't teach lies to their children about false equality that doesn't exist in the real world, and never, ever will.
To answer the original question, 1st edition D and D is inferior to Third edition strictly from a rules standpoint. The 3rd edition rules provide more information for the DM and players to handle different situations and events that occur in game.
As far as concept and creativity, they are about the same. Why? 3rd edition incorporates much of what was great about 1st edition from a creativity standpoint.
As far as sex goes, I can tolerate females having equal strength for a fantasy game. I don't care.
Please don't try to bring real life into it. I have met too many modern day males who are too weak to live up to the expectations of being a man. They fall back on the relativist thinking that somehow tries to teach that men and women are equal.
Wake up to the real world and be a man. Men and women aren't equal. They never will be. You are meant to be warrior of the group just as you have been since the dawn of man. Stop trying to make believe that somehow men dominated the world for so long by accident.
It was no accident that men have been the dominant sex for as long as recorded history in 99.9% of world cultures. Men are more aggressive, stronger, and more powerful than women. Only in a peaceful world without war will woman gain even a small measure of equality, and even then it will be hard fought. Males are aggressive, and it is almost impossible to breed out of us. It hardly means 100%, but it definitely means the majority.
I don't think women should be sitting at home doing nothing. It simply means men and women should learn to embrace their differences and work to each other's strengths. They shouldn't teach lies to their children about false equality that doesn't exist in the real world, and never, ever will.
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