AD&D First Edition inferior?

[RobNJ]

So you would want it if some how they could make money off it?

It's not about what I want. I want to be married to a 5' tall bisexual post-punk model with a PhD in English Literature and a PhD in Physical Anthropology. Tough for me.

It's about what's going to happen in the real world. If you want to convince Wizards of the Coast to do it, you've got to give them a reason to do it. The only reason they do it is if there's some financial gain by doing it. Many others have already argued concretely why there would be no financial gain. You have yet to give a single coherent argument about what the financial gain would be.

Pretend you're talking to someone at Wizards of the Coast. Tell them why they should bother. And you've got to come up with something better than, "I talked to 20 people on the internet who'd like it."

 

[RobNJ]

What Gene is talking about is releasing the 1e/2e rules in a document like the SRD. It doesn't necessarily involve selling it; WotC had a number of books from older editions available as free downloads.

I don't think it's that bad of an idea.

I don't really have an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not. But the question is are we operating in the realm of pure fantasy or are we talking about the real world?

Wizards have to have a reason to do this. They need a reason to divide the energies of their SRD intern or to get lawyers to figure out the legality of SRDing 1st and 2nd edition or the numerous other things.

And even if they got past all that . . . the question is what does it gain them? And what does it hurt them. So far the only argument that I've heard that's been in any way convincing is that it would hurt them. I forget who made the point, but someone pointed out that it could sap sales from 3E and the PHB, and selling the core rulebooks is why Wizards created the SRD and OGL.

Gene has provided no more coherent argument than, "Gee wiz it'd be nice," which isn't enough to talk about in the real world.

 

[diaglo]

Gene has provided no more coherent argument than, "Gee wiz it'd be nice," which isn't enough to talk about in the real world.

that is the mechanic of ideas. you come up with an idea.

the actual working model is a different thing.

proposing an idea. and making it happen can be 2 different things.

ask some companies that have R&D departments.

you need an idea to start a project. what happens next is left to others. or at least the way i interpret Gene.

 

[Tuerny]

I could also see some confusion in regards to what it exactly means when you get a d20 product.

If 2nd and 1st edition material are in the document wouldn't that make the categorization as a d20 product kind of worthless?

Though I suppose new designators could be made.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't really have an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not. But the question is are we operating in the realm of pure fantasy or are we talking about the real world?

Wizards have to have a reason to do this. They need a reason to divide the energies of their SRD intern or to get lawyers to figure out the legality of SRDing 1st and 2nd edition or the numerous other things.

And even if they got past all that . . . the question is what does it gain them? And what does it hurt them. So far the only argument that I've heard that's been in any way convincing is that it would hurt them. I forget who made the point, but someone pointed out that it could sap sales from 3E and the PHB, and selling the core rulebooks is why Wizards created the SRD and OGL.

Gene has provided no more coherent argument than, "Gee wiz it'd be nice," which isn't enough to talk about in the real world.

Think about it like this: they can release it much as they did the SRD. Release everything but, say, character generation, as they did with d20. Require the use of a cleaned up and edited "Rules Cyclopedia" that collects the most important portions of the 1e/2e PHB/DMG/MM. They could retain the rights to the D&D/AD&D imprint, and license it as they did with Kalamar.

HackMaster uses 1e/2e rules, licensed from WotC. As we know, HM has not crippled 3e. Based upon this fact, I doubt that the audience who would buy products for 1e/2e OGL products would be drawn away from 3e in any substantial way. That is, this would appeal to the most ardent 1e/2e fans, the ones who didn't switch to 3e.

This would provide another source of revenue, which I believe - and, admittedly, what do I know? - would outweigh any potential undermining of the 3e customer base.

Of course, something would have to be done to make this fair to Kenzer, who paid to use the 1e/2e rules. I don't know what could be done about that, but I'm sure something could.

As for delaying the release of d20 material into the SRD - no, of course I wouldn't want that to happen. This could be done once the bulk of the material has been placed in the SRD. WotC's release pace seems to have slowed quite a bit, so keeping up will eventually be relatively easy once all the hardcovers and splatbooks are in the SRD (or whatever material WotC is willing to release into the SRD).

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I could also see some confusion in regards to what it exactly means when you get a d20 product.

If 2nd and 1st edition material are in the document wouldn't that make the categorization as a d20 product kind of worthless?

Though I suppose new designators could be made.

I'm speaking of releasing the 1e/2e rules in a seperate and distinct SRD-like document, not intermingling the d20 rules and those of 1e/2e.

 

[Bryan Vining]

More thoughts

Hmmm.. supposing a 1e/2e SRD were done in essentially the same manner as the 3e SRD, there could be some financial benefit to Wizards, albeit not very much. It would have to use the same model of driving PHB sales, but in this case, 1e PHB sales. Given the (probably) pretty small market for this, I'd have to say that I would be surprised if they went for it, unless someone were to volunteer to do most of the work for Wizards. In other words, it would have to be more or less 90% profit to get them interested. There is also the question of the Kenzerco license and what limits that might set.

As for money, RPGs are a fantastic value. Let's say you play D&D just four times a year. If you're a player, and you haven't bought a ton of stuff for the fun of it, you've spent less than eight bucks for the four sessions. That would be (probably) a minimum of 16 hours of entertainment, or just under $2 an hour. Let's compare that to a movie. Movies (at least in NJ) run about $8, for, on average, two hours of entertainment. That's $4 an hour. Of course, if you're a regular player, the value gets to be even better. If I spend $100 on RPG products (yeah, right) and play for 300 hours this year (which isn't really that inconceivable), then it's a fantastic value. It's hard to think of another form of entertainment that is that cheap that isn't just free.

 

[Geoffrey]

You, my friend, should be playing FUDGE.

I think D&D is a phenomenal value for the price. Heck, it would be a great value at twice the price, although a lot less people would be playing it. I pay $10 for a 2 hour movie. That's $5 an hour. Since 3e has come out, I have played - what? - 300 hours of D&D for the price of the core rules. That's $.33 an hour, and getting cheaper every time we play. Even if you assume I've spent an additional $200 on accessories, it's still only $1 an hour. It's a great deal.

So I don't buy your statement at all. $25? Maybe the PHB to attract new players, but not for all 3 books.

What about a casual gamer who wants to play a few times each year? I don't think he'd want to pay $100.00 for something he'd take off the shelf once every three or four months.

For example, some people will buy a DVD of a favorite movie and watch it 40 times. But I don't think these people would pay $400.00 for the DVD.

Lastly, I don't want the three core books with 750 pages for $20. I want one single book with 128 pages of stripped-down-to-basics 3E rules with a price tag of $20. TSR essentially did this in 1981, at the height of D&D popularity.

What the devil is wrong with WotC? Don't they realize that there are people who would like to give 3E a whirl but don't want to drop $100.00 for it? They don't want to print out reams from the SRD either. They just want to walk into a game store, pay $25, and walk out with a COMPLETE D&D game they can learn to play in a few hours.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

How many people are really out there pining for such a product? How many people play, or would play, D&D only a couple of times a year? That seems more the province of a board game.
D&D is doing better than it ever has, so I don't know why the matter of a D&D Lite is addressed with such urgency. It's not like D&D is fading away like it was in the latter part of the TSR era.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

What about a casual gamer who wants to play a few times each year? I don't think he'd want to pay $100.00 for something he'd take off the shelf once every three or four months.

D&D isn't meant to be played a few times a year. Its fundamental design revolves around a group of friends who play regularly 2-4 times a month.

For example, some people will buy a DVD of a favorite movie and watch it 40 times. But I don't think these people would pay $400.00 for the DVD.

There are many more people who pay $20 for a DVD and watch it once every 3 or 4 months. Which is a better value, a $20 DVD or a $20 PHB?

Lastly, I don't want the three core books with 750 pages for $20. I want one single book with 128 pages of stripped-down-to-basics 3E rules with a price tag of $20. TSR essentially did this in 1981, at the height of D&D popularity.

Well good for you. I want more. Just because WotC decided to target one of us and not the other doesn't mean there's anything wrong with their plan. It just means they decided not to fragment their customer base.

What the devil is wrong with WotC? Don't they realize that there are people who would like to give 3E a whirl but don't want to drop $100.00 for it? They don't want to print out reams from the SRD either. They just want to walk into a game store, pay $25, and walk out with a COMPLETE D&D game they can learn to play in a few hours.

Buy a freaking PHB!! It's got enough monsters in the back to let you "give it a whirl." If you buy it and don't like it, well, sorry, but you wasted $20. If you buy it and like it, you can buy a DMG and MM! There you go! Or buy the D&D adventure game, which is exactly what you want, for 8 bucks! What's the problme?